TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
MAGISTRATES COURT
STROFIELD, Magistrate
MAG-00006213/08
GERALDINE FOOI FONG ROBERTSON
Applicant
and
DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRIES AND
Respondent
FISHERIES
and
ROYAL SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS
BRISBANE
..DATE 27/08/2008
CONTINUED FROM 15/08/2008
..DAY 7
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offence. This is so particularly in relation to the identification of children who are involved in criminal proceedings or proceedings for
their protection under the Child Protection Act 1999, and complainants in criminal sexual offences, but is not limited to those
categories. You may wish to seek legal advice before giving others access to the details of any person named in these proceedings.
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27082008 D.7 T1/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
ANDREW CAMERON APPOINTED AS RECORDER
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BENCH: Now, Mrs Robertson, you've got an application.
APPLICANT: Yes, your Honour, I have.
BENCH: Yes.
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APPLICANT: Yes, your Honour.
BENCH: Pardon?
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Now do you want to proceed with your application?
APPLICANT: Yes.
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BENCH: All right. Can I - in paragraph 1 of your application
which was filed yesterday, you want me to withdraw because of
invincible bias. Do you mean actual bias or perceived bias or
apprehension of bias?
APPLICANT: Apprehension of bias, your Honour.
BENCH: Okay. Can you outline to me the grounds that you're
relying on for your application?
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APPLICANT: I think in the Exhibit GR1 and GR2.
BENCH: This is to your affidavit that you filed yesterday, is
it?
APPLICANT: Yes please.
BENCH: GR1 and GR2.
APPLICANT: I think it's GR1 is the exit video which Tars
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Hammond said he took.
BENCH: GR1 is a-----
APPLICANT: Of the courtyard on entry, on the left.
BENCH: Yes, a photo rather than the video.
APPLICANT: Yes, yes. It was actually part of the video that
we stopped at.
50
BENCH: It's a freeze frame off the video.
APPLICANT: Yes, yes please. And it showed that - it was
taken later because of the water but it was the same with - I
hadn't cleaned, he insisted that I had cleaned that part of
the courtyard because it stunk badly of urine and faeces. In
fact that courtyard was clean. GR2 was from the entry video
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27082008 D.7 T1/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
that was supplied both by RSPCA and that was shortly after
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entry because it still had dogs in the courtyard and that was
supposedly said by Lawrie Stageman that he took on entry.
It's the same courtyard that was taken earlier and it showed
the dogs being there - it showed that it was done at the
start. And the courtyard wasn't clean - I mean, it was in the
same condition.
BENCH: Okay, how is that a basis for your application that
I'm biased?
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APPLICANT: Because I mean, he had perjured himself, Towers-
Hammond, by saying that I had cleaned - he insisted that the
scraping sounds which appear to me to be added on, was very
loud in context with the rest of the tape. And he insisted
that I had cleaned up that courtyard between those two
periods, like between the time they arrived and later when he
arrived, which was later than Lawrie Stageman, who took this
photo.
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BENCH: Mrs Robertson, I haven't made any findings about his
evidence or what he said or have made any assessment or any -
I haven't broadcast any assessment that I have made about his
credibility as a witness. I heard his evidence. I saw him
give evidence in Court. I've made no assessments at all about
whether I accept his evidence, in part or totally, or at all.
APPLICANT: I just had the impression on that day that when we
wanted - it was a long day, that day when we - when I cross-
examined Towers-Hammond and I realise that but, you know, I
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wanted him to see these two in comparison. I think there was
a problem with the video as well, and then when it finally got
going, [indistinct] you said that you would accept and I was
quite surprised because-----
BENCH: It becomes a question of how much weight I place on
everyone's evidence. See as I'm going along, part of my
function is to determine the credibility of people who give
evidence.
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APPLICANT: Yes and you didn't-----
BENCH: Now it may be that at the end of the day I reject, I
accept, I reject in part, I reject totally the evidence of
some or all of the witnesses.
APPLICANT: I mean, you know-----
BENCH: What I need to do - sorry, Mrs Robertson-----
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APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: -----I don't mean to cut you off but I need to take
all of the evidence on board and consider it in its
completeness.
APPLICANT: Yeah, I was just surprised that because it just so
clear. He insisted and he insisted. I think he did about
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27082008 D.7 T1/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
three times or maybe two or three or four and it was getting
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to be really boring and it was clearly on the screen that it
hadn't been cleaned.
BENCH: Well, all right, I accept that that's your submission
and-----
APPLICANT: It was his insistence that I had cleaned it.
BENCH: I can just vaguely recall his evidence and-----
10
APPLICANT: And it was geared to worse than that. It was
geared to the place stinking of faeces and urine when
obviously, it couldn't have stunk because of the rain that had
subsequently more came down that day.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, I can assure you I'll make an
assessment of his evidence when I've heard all of the
evidence.
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APPLICANT: Okay. And I think the rest of it is virtually on
the same vein that there's been so much defamation said about
me and it seems that - it seemed more was going on in the
Court and nothing much seems to be done about it and the fact
that-----
BENCH: Well, it's peoples' - the evidence - people are giving
evidence and they're giving evidence in the witness box.
APPLICANT: Yes, but apparently some of them - the evidence is
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so contradictory that it is laughable and it's like the
audiotapes. I mean we sat here for hours.
BENCH: The quality of the audiotape was dreadful, I accept
that.
APPLICANT: It's-----
BENCH: It was poor, I could hardly hear anything. I know I
think you've made the observation that it had all these sort
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of sounds that made it very difficult to hear what was being
said. I had considerable difficulty.
APPLICANT: Your Honour, I was there when the tape was being
taken, a recording. It was a very peaceful - the dogs don't
bark - my dogs don't bark generally but the barking was -
firstly, it was of small dogs and it sounded like an enclosed
area, like a kennel, a room or whatever - a house, a room like
it's enclosed in. I mean it's - because - and my dogs are out
in the open, like courtyards and all. The ambeviance [sic] is
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totally different. The ambience is totally different. And
yet, he insisted that he kept the two audio recordings and you
could hardly hear what I said and I was very clear. And
looking at the transcript this morning, just of the audiotape,
I mean it's all rubbish. I don't use language like that.
BENCH: I think and I haven't gone back - I have the ability
and the facilities - the Court has the facilities for me to be
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27082008 D.7 T1/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
able to listen to the actual recording. I haven't done that
1
at this stage but I have a memory that I may have asked Mrs
Mellifont or there may have been a volunteering, I don't
recall exactly what was said, about locating the original of
that, of the tape.
APPLICANT: Well, Ms Mellifont did say this morning, that she
actually had organised a transcript and also the original
apparently, was worse. But it couldn't have been because -
the other thing too is, I mean, the policemen. There were two
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policemen with him when he served - in fact, there were two
and then two more came, four.
BENCH: We've heard evidence about that.
APPLICANT: Yes, is it possible if I could, sort of, get them
to - I mean they could verify all this, surely.
BENCH: Well, you would have the ability to serve a summons on
the Commissioner of Police to have him arrange for the work
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rosters and the diaries, perhaps, of whoever the officers were
who attended on that day and that would, I would have thought,
go some way to establishing who or who was not there. They
have logs of what they do each day.
APPLICANT: Yes, yes.
BENCH: Like a diary.
APPLICANT: Could I have leave to sort of do that, or-----
30
BENCH: You'll need-----
APPLICANT: -----permission or-----
BENCH: -----to do that fairly quickly. If you want to go and
do that and to establish that there are issues about
credibility of the witnesses about who was or wasn't there,
you'll need to do that quickly because the time is getting by.
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APPLICANT: The time constraints, yes. The other thing too,
1
is also like Penny Cook the vet-----
BENCH: Yes.
APPLICANT: -----I think there was - I read her affidavit and
it said that my dogs were killing - I sent a decomposed body
to her. She was only a vet for me for a short period, but she
was the breeders vet.
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BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: And obviously I feel that the evidence she gave -
she's going to give, rather, and on her affidavit is totally
incorrect and I was shocked.
BENCH: Well-----
APPLICANT: The fact that firstly it was very old.
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BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: And from, I think, Ms Mellifont said about 13
years.
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: I knew it was over 10.
BENCH: Mmm.
30
APPLICANT: And she wasn't really my vet because I was with
virtually about four vets.
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: Permanently for a long period of time.
BENCH: Mmm.
40
APPLICANT: And Penny Cook it was - there was a vet at Logan
River and he was my vet for about 10 years and he retired. He
changed profession. When his mother stopped breeding he
stopped being a vet, so I changed to Penny because Penny used
to do the hip X-rays. And she was only my vet for a short
period. And what she said, she sold the business according to
her affidavit. She - the information that she's - that was
many years ago, about 10 or more. And not only that, she's
got no records and a lot of the things she's said is totally
untrue.
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BENCH: Well the-----
APPLICANT: I mean, admittedly we are running out of time-----
BENCH: All right.
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27082008 D.7 T02/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: -----and there are witnesses that are more
1
important like the RSPCA vet who attended to my dogs.
BENCH: Yes, yes. Well-----
APPLICANT: And another vet-----
BENCH: -----the - I can tell you that the reason why I want
to hear from that vet is that you've raised her in your
evidence. You've raised her in some of the cross-examination
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and you'll be able to put all of those things that you've just
put to me to her. Now whether I - well I'll hear from her,
but whether I place any weight on what she's got to say is
another thing.
APPLICANT: Your Honour, I did not raise her in my-----
BENCH: Remember the rules?
APPLICANT: -----evidence.
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BENCH: Remember the rules, Mrs Robertson. When I speak you
don't.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: When you speak I won't. You'll be able to put to her
those things that you've just mentioned to me then. Now I may
not accept anything that she says. I might find it of no
relevance at all. So it'll be a question of what weight, if
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any, that I place on her evidence.
APPLICANT: See the - the point is I didn't raise her at all,
because she was insignificant to me. It was raised by Ms
Mellifont. She cross-examined me when I was doing my - when I
was at the witness box.
BENCH: When you were giving evidence, yes.
APPLICANT: Yes, giving evidence. And I was quite surprised
40
because-----
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: -----she did help me out in a time when - like, on
the weekend when the dogs they were cut by the hibiscus bush,
the flap - the skin was like a-----
BENCH: I recall you saying things like that.
50
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Look, you'll be able to put those things to her.
APPLICANT: But you know, what she said, because I couldn't
imagine me taking a dead decomposed dog to her. I've never
done it, I'm not stupid.
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BENCH: Look on the face of it-----
1
APPLICANT: And when it's dead, it's dead.
BENCH: On the face of it the vet seems relevant to me, but I
haven't heard any evidence from her. All right?
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: But I - I do want to hear from her to make an - to
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make that assessment.
APPLICANT: But I thought more importantly is me trying to get
my dogs back and RSPCA has made so many allegations about the
condition of my dogs which are totally untrue. And it's
important that their vets get examined - cross-examined by me.
BENCH: Yes, and they will be. They-----
APPLICANT: And I - we don't have the opportunity. There's
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three of them and Miss Cook appeared out of the blue, older
than 10 years old about something that doesn't apply to these
dogs.
BENCH: All right.
APPLICANT: It is more slanderous, more defaming me than
facing the facts of what really happened to my dogs.
BENCH: Mmm.
30
APPLICANT: Till this day I have not been allowed to see all
my dogs and I believe they've been stolen and sold, because
none of them - the photos that I've been given - all the
photos I've examined two-thirds of them were not - they were
mostly the same dog in different photos. And the valuable
ones have gone.
BENCH: Mmm.
40
APPLICANT: And there was 20 of them, 14 reds and six I think,
browns, that belonged to another registered breeder. And I've
got other breeders suing me now in Court for their dogs and
that - one of them is Benji Kennels, which they kept. That's
pure crap as far as I'm concerned.
BENCH: I think I've heard evidence from you along those
lines.
APPLICANT: And this has been dragging on for months. And we
50
are avoiding the issue of trying to find out whether they are
entitled to take my dogs.
BENCH: All right. Well let's focus on this application now.
APPLICANT: Yes.
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BENCH: Is there anything else you want to say about the
1
application?
APPLICANT: I think I've said it all in the affidavit. I put
a lot of thought into it before I lodged it. In fact I only
did it very late because it was a very stressful decision.
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: Your Honour, all I want is that justice be heard
10
and the wrongs be corrected. All I want is my dogs back.
BENCH: I understand, I understand.
APPLICANT: Because they were stolen. They wouldn't let me
identify my dogs. They wouldn't let my vet check my dogs.
They wouldn't let any vet check my dogs. And from the very
start they just came and took them all. They promised me and
told me a lot of lies and they're still lying. I just felt
that it's been eight months - I just felt that with all the
20
Magistrate that has listened you seem to me to be the fairest
and yet I felt that I had tried so hard to prove the lies
which is very difficult. And it didn't seem to be taken into
consideration and I find that very difficult to understand.
BENCH: Well, Mrs Robertson, I've made every attempt to listen
very closely to every witness.
APPLICANT: And I think that's - that's basically it.
30
BENCH: All right.
APPLICANT: I've put everything down in writing. I've gone
over it and that's how I - that's what I believe.
BENCH: All right. Is there anything else you wish to say?
APPLICANT: No, your Honour.
BENCH: Okay.
40
APPLICANT: I think that's all I have to say this morning
about this-----
BENCH: Thank you.
APPLICANT: -----this application.
BENCH: All right. Ms Mellifont, before I consider the
application further is there anything that you wish to say
50
about the application?
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, Mr Duoung and I have prepared a
brief outline of submissions in respect of each of the points.
I would just propose to hand that up. I don't have any
additional oral submissions. A copy for your Honour and a
copy for the Court's file. You'll see that the header refers
to in response to the appellant's application dated the 16th
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of August, 2008. That was the day on which we received the
1
first version of the application.
BENCH: Oh.
MS MELLIFONT: It was modified as of yesterday, but in any
event, these submissions address the application as filed
yesterday.
BENCH: All right. I think the only matter I need to consider
10
at this stage is the - the allegation of bias.
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
BENCH: I don't think I need to consider the other grounds at
this stage, because the law clearly is the relevant
consideration is the view that a reasonable and intelligent
lay observer might form and with respect to the application of
Mrs Robertson in my view a reasonable and intelligent lay
observer would form the view that there is no bias, either
20
actual or perceived bias. So, I don't need to - I don't think
I need to consider the application further, other than Mrs
Robertson, in respect of your application for an order that
you show - sorry, that you be shown your poodles, I don't
think that I've got the power to do that. This is an appeal
against an order made by the delegate of the Chief Executive.
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1
APPLICANT: I believe you do, because the - the - as I - as I
read the Act, it is in your lap.
BENCH: All right. Well, yes please address me on that,
because I - I've indicated to you a preliminary view.
APPLICANT: Sorry?
BENCH: Can you refer me to anything in particular?
10
APPLICANT: Just the sections of the Act that we - we didn't
bring the Act today. Section 199(c). Right. Who may appeal.
BENCH: Sorry, what section was that Mrs Robertson?
APPLICANT: The Animal Care and Protection Act-----
BENCH: Yes.
20
APPLICANT: -----2001. 199 (c) Who may appeal. And it says,
"Any interested person for-----"
BENCH: Sorry, did you say 199 (c)?
APPLICANT: 199, sorry. One double nine.
BENCH: Yes. And did you say ( c)?
APPLICANT: No.
30
BENCH: I'm sorry, I thought you did.
APPLICANT: There's no (c).
BENCH: Yes, "A person may appeal against the review decision
to a Magistrates Court."
APPLICANT: Yes.
40
BENCH: And that's you?
APPLICANT: Yes. To the - "Courts powers on appeal".
BENCH: Yes.
APPLICANT: 2003.
BENCH: Section 203?
50
APPLICANT: 203, sorry.
BENCH: Yes. Mmm. See, the powers in 2000 and - I'm sorry,
I've fallen into the same trap.
APPLICANT: Yes.
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BENCH: Section 204, they're not enlivened until I've made a
1
determination.
APPLICANT: Your Honour?
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: But the ownership of the dogs that - that I don't
think has been - I believe, according to the - to how the Act
reads, I still own the dogs and the Department of Primary
10
Industries can under this Act give them to RSPCA, which
they're trying to do.
BENCH: Well, I'm not sure that that's right, because under
section 154, the Chief Executive may decide to forfeit the
animal to the State.
APPLICANT: That's what they're trying to do.
BENCH: Mmm.
20
APPLICANT: But the ownership still is mine.
BENCH: But that - that's the decision you're appealing
against, the forfeiture order.
APPLICANT: No, that's not the decision. The decision that
I'm appealing again is the - there has been no, according to
them the - the reason for taking the dogs is because they've
been neglected, they - well, according - breaches of the
30
Animal Care and Protection Act.
BENCH: But as I-----
APPLICANT: And that's the only reason and I'm trying to prove
that I haven't done that in order to keep my dogs, to retain
my dogs.
BENCH: Mmm.
40
APPLICANT: In other words they cannot - they should be
allowed to forfeit my dogs, because I haven't done any done
any of the things that they allege I have. And so in other
words, the dogs still belong to me. They are trying to take
them away. But through the powers of this Act they can take
those dogs away from me, if they can prove that there has been
a breach under the sections of this Act. To date they are
trying to prove - they claim that there has been breaches.
I'm saying there haven't.
50
BENCH: All right.
APPLICANT: So, in reality those dogs still belong to me. The
ownership of the dogs still belong to me, until it is proven
either way. If I've been proven neglectful or in breaches of
this Act, then the dogs can be forfeited. That's how I
understand it.
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BENCH: Mmm.
1
APPLICANT: But up to this point in time, since the seizure -
since the raid on the 9th of January, they have not allowed
me-----
BENCH: Well, Mrs - Mrs Robertson, I fully understand that
that's the case; that you haven't been able to see the dogs.
What we're looking at at the moment is-----
10
APPLICANT: But they're still my dogs.
BENCH: Where is the power in the Act for me, as the Appeal
Court, to make an order that you can inspect or view or look
at the dogs? And what I-----
APPLICANT: I'm sure there's no provisions in the Act.
BENCH: All right.
20
APPLICANT: And I think it's a very bad Act, to start off
with.
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: It's a terrorist Act.
BENCH: Well, but I have to, as you know, act according to the
law.
30
APPLICANT: I have to agree with you, your Honour.
BENCH: Okay.
APPLICANT: It's a very loose Act, it's a badly written Act.
BENCH: But as you know, as I said, I need to act in
accordance with the law, Mrs Robertson. All right. Is there
anything that either of you wish to say, Ms Mellifont or Mr
Duong?
40
MS MELLIFONT: Not in terms-----
BENCH: All right.
MS MELLIFONT: -----of the application, but can I just please
place this on the record and to perhaps give Mrs Robertson
some solace. Six of the dogs are at the Fairfield Shelter -
the RSPCA shelter. The remainder of the dogs are in foster
care. None of them have been sold, the reason being of course
50
that nothing can happen to these dogs pending the outcome of
these proceedings. Your Honour, there was a couple of
housekeeping matters. Would this be a convenient time to
raise those?
BENCH: Yes. Did you hear what Ms Mellifont said about the
dogs?
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APPLICANT: Yes, I think RSPCA has always alleged that was the
1
case, but there's been information received that that wasn't
the case at all.
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: Because we will I suppose try and find out what
happened as we proceed I guess.
BENCH: Yes, Ms Mellifont, those housekeeping matters?
10
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour. Since the last day, a
transcription of the tape recording by Laurie Stageman has
been prepared.
BENCH: Yes.
MS MELLIFONT: Can I hand up a copy of that transcription?
BENCH: Thank you. Mrs Robertson has got a copy of the
20
transcription?
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, just this morning but-----
APPLICANT: Yes.
MS MELLIFONT: -----as - as did I.
BENCH: Okay. All right.
30
MS MELLIFONT: The second matter is that your Honour's
recollection is correct, it was raised the possibility of
seeing if there was a better version of the recording taken by
Mr Stageman on the 9th of January 2008. Now, what I've been
provided is a CD of a digital recording. I understand that
its quality is in fact worse than the audio recording-----
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BENCH: I didn't think that was possible actually.
1
MS MELLIFONT: Yes. I don't think it's appropriate that I try
to explain the reason for that from the Bar table, Mr Stageman
will have to explain what he means by a digital recording.
What he recorded this device on and what happened, I just - I
don't quite understand what's happened.
BENCH: Right. Right. Okay.
10
MS MELLIFONT: But I will - I can hand that up.
BENCH: All right. So that's a CD of the - if we can call it,
digital recording by Mr Stageman?
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, in adverted commas. Thank you.
BENCH: I think we're up to Exhibit 28. Is that everyone
else's - thank you.
20
Has Mrs Robertson been provided a copy of the - of the CD even
though it's worse than the-----
MS MELLIFONT: No, not - not as yet, that's the only copy I
have.
BENCH: All right.
MS MELLIFONT: I could arrange for burning over the break,
morning or lunch time.
30
BENCH: Would - Mrs Robertson, would you like a copy of this
CD, Ms Mellifont says that the quality of it is even worse
than the - the actual recording?
APPLICANT: Yes thanks.
BENCH: All right. Would you arrange that?
MS MELLIFONT: Most certainly.
40
BENCH: Thank you.
MS MELLIFONT: The last matter is a diary matter.
BENCH: Yes. Yes.
MS MELLIFONT: As you might recall, the 24th and 25th of
September were allocated-----
50
BENCH: Yes.
MS MELLIFONT: -----in terms of this matter on the hope that
my trial in the District Court would be finished.
BENCH: Mmm.
MS MELLIFONT: When I returned to chambers that day-----
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1
BENCH: Mmm.
MS MELLIFONT: -----I was met with a message from another
instructing solicitor, the Court Appeal has listed an appeal
of mine on the 25th of September-----
BENCH: Mmm.
MS MELLIFONT: -----and it's a matter I was briefed in prior
10
to being involved in this case.
BENCH: Mmm.
MS MELLIFONT: It's an appeal against sentence only and
ordinarily these things are disposed of with inside an hour.
BENCH: Mmm.
MS MELLIFONT: So I was going to ask the Court's indulgence
20
for the - for that period of time for me to go and do the
appeal and come back.
BENCH: On the 25th?
MS MELLIFONT: On the 25th.
BENCH: Mmm. Mmm.
MS MELLIFONT: It may very well be that we're up to
30
submissions by then and I will have written submissions and
so-----
BENCH: Mmm.
MS MELLIFONT: -----certainly the time won't be spent idly no
doubt-----
BENCH: Mmm.
40
MS MELLIFONT: -----and I will seek to prevent the downtime in
these proceedings as - as far as possible if the Court's
prepared to grant me that indulgence.
BENCH: I would. I'm very keen to reach a conclusion-----
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
BENCH: -----in this matter. I think there are a number of
issues and I think Mrs Robertson's interests would be best
50
served if we reach a conclusion sooner rather than later.
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
BENCH: And in fact I'm meant to be in the Brisbane Children's
Court Magistrate on the 24th and 25th, but I will be in this
Court-----
7-16
60
27082008 D.7 T04/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
1
BENCH: -----or one of these Courts so that we can - we hear
all the evidence and hopefully submissions by then.
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
BENCH: So, yes, the answer is, yes.
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.
10
BENCH: So, maybe that we won't start till 10 or 10.30, but
perhaps we can - over the next - if it's suitable to everyone
at the Bar table, make up as much time as we can.
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
BENCH: I'm quite prepared to sit a bit longer each day.
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
20
BENCH: Although if we could adjourn at 1 today and perhaps
come back a bit after 2, but if we can - we can work along
those lines.
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you. I'll have Mr Stageman return to the
witness box if your Honour is ready to proceed.
BENCH: I'm ready to proceed. Mrs Robertson, are you ready
to-----
30
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Yes, all right. Thank you.
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.
BENCH: And whilst Mr Stageman's coming in, the other
witnesses are available? We will have a constant flow of
witnesses today and tomorrow?
40
MS MELLIFONT: Yes. Yes.
BENCH: All right.
MS MELLIFONT: A witness list was prepared and forwarded to
Mrs Robertson as to the number of witnesses we expected to get
through-----
BENCH: Mmm.
50
MS MELLIFONT: -----plus some standbys.
BENCH: Good. That's good.
7-17
60
27082008 D.7 T04/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
LAWRENCE STAGEMAN, CONTINUING:
1
CROSS-EXAMINATION:
BENCH: Yes, Mrs Robertson.
10
APPLICANT: Yes. Mr Stageman, the - the tapes, the voice -
the audio tapes, could you explain the quality of the tapes?
You know, why is it so bad?-- I honestly can't tell you that,
I - I don't know. It's surprising me that the quality of it
is so - so poor.
Was it something that happened on that day, or is it a regular
thing?-- Normally when we - we take tapes with the digital
recorders they're normally not too bad, but I can't explain
that one, it's - the hissing noise and - the only thing I can
20
put it down to - 'cause when I transcribed it over to the
computer, that I plugged it straight in through the computer
microphone 'cause I didn't have an attachment for that
particular recorder, and I don't know whether there's a
difference in the - in the quality of the equipment. But I'm
not an electrical technician, I just - I just don't know.
So in other words, you - what do you mean by, "plug it
straight into the computer"?-- With the digital recorder and
we can plug it from the earpiece into the microphone of the -
30
of the computer and it downloads it onto the computer.
So in other words, you can still do it again can't you, or can
you?-- Yeah, I keep a copy of it on - on the computer.
Mmm. But other than that, the actual recording, have you
still got the original?-- No, because I only have a certain
amount of space on the recorder and because we do so many
jobs, I need that when I have the recorder on.
40
Mmm?-- There's no card in that recorder.
Right. Okay. Now, at the same time you did the entrance
video with the video recorder; when you came into the
kennels-----?-- Yeah.
-----into the property on - on the 9th of January morning, you
did the - the video the entrance video with your - with your
video recorder, you know the film?-- Yeah, that wasn't done
when we first went in 'cause I had my still camera and I was
50
taking still pictures. Later on I got Jed to start doing a
video of it.
Okay. But you sort of - I - I can't - I don't understand,
because I thought you said that - when did your voice recorder
start taping; it was on all day?-- It was on all day, yeah.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-18
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T04/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Right. So at some point in time, there would be a period in
1
time when your video recorder and your voice recorder was
working together?-- It would have been, yeah. Well, I - I
only had about - 'cause when I was trying to adjust the date
on - on the video camera, I probably filmed about 10 minutes
of it and then handed the camera over to Jed and he filmed all
the rest of the property.
But you said all the entrance was done by you anyway?-- No, I
did the entrance with the still camera-----
10
The entrance video?-- I didn't do the entrance with the video
camera. The video camera was taken until after-----
At 11 something I think?-- -----probably-----
11 - according to the videos that we were looking at because
your voice was there and you said you were videoing
it?-- Yeah, Jedd was with me.
20
Mmm. That was 11 something that morning according to the
clock?-- Yeah. 'Cause when we went back down - when we were
down - 'cause I took a lot of gear - no, I took a lot of still
pictures-----
I didn't see you take any still pictures actually. But
anyway, you said that - we're not worried about the still
pictures, just the entrance video, right, and your voice was
there and you said you took that footage of the entrance on
the left when we came through - when you came through the
30
door, and this is a photo of it?-- The - the entrance
video-----
Yes?-- -----when we first went in through the door-----
This one?-- -----that was taken by imagination.
Sorry?-- That was taken by imagination.
You said last time you were here that you took it?-- No, I
40
said I took 10 minutes of video footage and handed the camera
to Jed.
Right. You took 10 minutes of that video footage - this is a
photo from the - the entrance video, right? You came through
the side door - the reception door?-- Yeah.
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-19
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T5/CAMP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
And that's GR2 on the application - here we are. May I?
1
BENCH: Yes, Ms [indistinct]
APPLICANT: Remember the footage that you - you said you took
the last time we were here?-- Yeah, I think I did take that
one.
Yep?-- Yeah.
10
Now-----?-- 'Cause I was-----
-----that was when you came-----?-- -----I was mucking
around-----
-----through the door?-- -----with the date trying to get the
date to work on it - on the video camera and I handed it to
Jed.
Mmm-hmm. So you took that one. Your video - you took that
20
one. Your audio should have the same message I would think
because - you know - both of them are working together?-- It
should do.
Mmm. Then why the difference in the noise? There
was-----?-- I don't know.
Well, we might play-----?-- There's a different recording-----
-----the video again?-- -----there's a different recording
30
mechanism on the video camera than there is on the digital.
Well, we'll play that - both the recordings again and see.
Could we, your Honour, please?
BENCH: It's the - the entrance video?
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: And the exit video; is that-----
40
APPLICANT: No. The entrance video-----
BENCH: The entrance video.
APPLICANT: -----and the audio. They should have the same
message there. The ambience should be the same - the noise
level because he said that was the one that he took photo of.
BENCH: I'm just trying to - it's the actual video that you
50
want, isn't it, played.
APPLICANT: Yes, yes.
BENCH: Yes, I'm just trying to get-----
APPLICANT: It doesn't matter. I think there's a DVD or the
same - yeah, that one will be fine.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-20
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T5/CAMP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
BENCH: I think though we had trouble with the DVD; remember?
APPLICANT: Oh, well, we'll do that one then because - um.
MS MELLIFONT: While that's-----
APPLICANT: Could we have could we have the-----
MS MELLIFONT: Sorry.
10
APPLICANT: Sorry.
MS MELLIFONT: While that's occurring can I just note that the
photo shown to Mr Stageman was GR2-----
TAPE PLAYED
20
MS MELLIFONT: -----it was GR2 to the affidavit of the
application heard this morning. A still photograph of the
video 11:13:27.
BENCH: 11:13:27, yes. Thank you.
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.
30
BENCH: Just go back to the beginning. You want that played
now, Ms Robertson?
APPLICANT: Yes, please, yeah.
BENCH: You can see that there, Mr Stageman?-- Yes, your
Honour.
APPLICANT: Could you also-----
40
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
APPLICANT: Your Honour, could you find from the transcript -
the audio transcript where what was said the time on it
because it's - there should be because [indistinct]
50
BENCH: This - what you've given Mr Stageman-----
APPLICANT: A copy of the transcript audio.
BENCH: -----the transcript which was handed up this morning?
APPLICANT: Yes, please.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-21
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T5/CAMP/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: Of the audio tape, yes?-- Your Honour, could I point
1
out, too, please, that when I first attended the property it
was at 10.45.
Yes?-- The video wasn't started to take - be taken until after
11.13.
Mmm?-- And I've already walked through there with my still
camera talking to Mrs Robertson.
10
Yes, I think that's been your evidence, yes. Now, Mrs
Robertson wants you to identify on the transcript where this
appears.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Because he's given evidence that he's had his voice
recorder on at the same time that this-----
APPLICANT: That's right.
20
BENCH: -----video recorder-----
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: -----has been turned on. Okay.
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, can I just give Mr Stageman a
clean copy as Ms Robertson's had to hand her own copy up.
30
BENCH: Well, I'll give - you keep yours.
MS MELLIFONT: I have - this is an additional one.
BENCH: You have an additional copy? All right. Do you
remember the actual words that you were asking him to look
for, Mrs Robertson?
APPLICANT: I couldn't find anything similar-----
40
BENCH: Oh, I see. Okay.
APPLICANT: So I thought he might be able to tell me where it
is.
BENCH: I follow. Mrs Robertson, I think Mr Stageman's ready.
APPLICANT: Sorry.
WITNESS: Yes.
50
APPLICANT: Have - can you find it or-----?-- No. Could I
hear that-----
I think we-----?-- -----video again, please.
Yes.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-22
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T5/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: Go back to the beginning please.
1
TAPE PLAYED
WITNESS: All I know on the transcript is when I went there at
10.45 where I gave you the warrant - at 10.35 I gave you the
10
warrant. The video wasn't started until 11 so none of that
would be on that audio tape, when I first entered the
property.
APPLICANT: I - I can't understand why it shouldn't be because
you had your audio tape on when you entered the - before you
entered the property, all the time that you were in the - on
the property?-- Yeah, I had my audio tape on the whole time.
Mmm, so somewhere along the line they should, at some point in
20
time, match up with the video. Because we could hear your
voice on the video?-- Yeah.
And your audio tape is on your body so it would - would have
recorded the same?-- Well you'd think that as well, but as -
as I listened to the tape and everything, because the - the
quality's so bad you can't really pick up who was saying what.
How - how did you manage to do the transcript then?-- It was
done at the lawyers. I - I went home and got a copy onto the
30
CD and gave it to the lawyers.
Which lawyers?-- From Clayton Utz.
So they-----?-- And they - and they did the transcript.
The lawyers actually did it? You were there when they did
it?-- I wasn't there when they did it, no.
You left it with them? Right, okay.
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-23
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T6-7/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Why is there so much difference in the barking? Can you
1
explain that, the noise?
MR DUONG: I can't explain that, Mrs Robertson. I - honestly
I can't.
APPLICANT: Maybe we should try and listen to the tape now and
try and see whether-----
BENCH: I think that's Exhibit 26 is that right, the tape?
10
MS MELLIFONT: No.
BENCH: Not that one. Oh, that's a-----
MS MELLIFONT: Do you have a copy of the exhibit list? Mine's
just a bit out of order. It is 25. It's the one I returned
this morning.
BENCH: The one you returned this morning?
20
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, it's a normal standard size audio
cassette. Yes, that's it.
BENCH: It doesn't have - was it in an envelope?
MS MELLIFONT: I didn't hand it back in an envelope and I
think probably that's my fault.
BENCH: The Court Exhibits in the envelopes go 24, blank, 26.
30
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, I'll try to - I'm just trying to remember
whether I took it in an envelope.
BENCH: That's all right.
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, I think what's happened is I took
it in an envelope which was an unmarked envelope.
BENCH: Mmm.
40
MS MELLIFONT: I've then written on it "for collection Tony
Dean Clayton Hughes". So I'll hand up that envelope, that's
the one I recall receiving it in.
BENCH: No, it'll be one with a Court Exhibit sticker on it.
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, I can't recall taking an envelope with a
Court exhibit sticker on it. But I will have a comprehensive
search anyway.
50
BENCH: We'll play the tape. That's not important I can make
another exhibit, but we'll play the tape to make sure that it
is the one that Mrs Robertson's referring to.
MS MELLIFONT: Oh, absolutely, yes.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-24
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T6-7/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: Maybe the envelope's just lost that's all or
1
misplaced.
TAPE PLAYED
APPLICANT: Can you stop it?
10
BENCH: That's the one - that's the one. We've got the right
exhibit. It needs to be played at double time or half time.
MS MELLIFONT: At half time.
BENCH: On one of those boom box things does it?
MS MELLIFONT: Or on a little recorder.
20
BENCH: Oh, on the hand held.
MS MELLIFONT: And I've had a phone call made to bring it up
expecting that that might be an issue.
BENCH: I see.
MS MELLIFONT: So it shouldn't - this might work.
30
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
MS MELLIFONT: What - what part of the tape should I take it
to, your Honour? Mrs Robertson, what part of the tape would
you like it?
APPLICANT: I think according to that it would be - he said at
40
10. From the beginning I think it says 10.35 that's it - 9
January, I think from the beginning.
MS MELLIFONT: Just rewinding it, your Honour.
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
50
BENCH: Sorry, Ms Mellifont, could you just stop it there?
Mrs Robertson is that an example of the barking that you're
wanting to talk to Mr Stagemen about?
APPLICANT: Yes, yes, yes. Mr Stageman, would you say that
that is the same barking as when you came into the house? I
think it was taken about the same time. The voice-----?-- The
XXN: APPLICANT
7-25
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T6-7/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
dogs were going off because we were strangers coming into the
1
place.
When you - in the entrance video that was when you came in at
the start, remember, I was still talking according to that
video and there was less barking. The dogs were-----?-- That
- the barking on that video was taken after 11 o'clock. When
I first entered the property which was at around 10.45 the
dogs were barking. The video wasn't taken until after 11
o'clock when I did an initial look around the property. Then
10
I asked to get the video camera out so we can start filming.
The film crew didn't come in 'cause they - they left.
So the film crew didn't come in?-- No.
So the - the only film footage you have is done by you with
the video or - is that right?--
Yeah, they - the - Imagination
took video footage of us standing at the front door when we
first initially spoke with you.
20
What footage did they take standing at the front door?-- They
took the video footage when I first walked up to your door.
So that was outside though?-- That was outside.
Yeah?-- They didn't come into the property.
So we didn't see any of that footage did we?-- I don't know.
The - the footage that we viewed earlier on this morning, that
30
you saw, the entrance video we call it?-- That was my video
camera.
That was your video camera?-- Yeah, but that - that video
wasn't taking until after 11.15. Because the initial - when I
first spoke to you we went in and had a look, went down the
back kennels, I took some still photographs, then I got the
video camera out and we started to take videos.
At 11.15; you came at 10.35 through the door, so 11.15 from
40
10.35 is 45 minutes?-- We did a bit of a tour around the
property as you agree.
We didn't till after the dogs - I had to - we did a tour of
the house first?-- Yeah, then we went down the back kennels.
Yeah, but that was after - later, because it's a long walk
down and I had to secure the dogs-----?-- Mmm.
-----on the property. So I think that was after, but the
50
video was done earlier than - before we went down to the
kennels?-- Well the initial photographs that I took of those
dogs on the left-hand side as you go through the door, there
was a lot of faeces on the ground.
It was-----?-- This is all on - on the still videos.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-26
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T6-7/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Yes, on - on the still videos?-- Yeah, then when the video
1
came because you had gone in there and started cleaning it up.
BENCH: When you say "still videos" Mr Stageman, do you mean
photographs?-- Yeah, I took still photographs-----
Still photographs?-- -----of the dogs when I first went in.
APPLICANT: Where are the photographs, Lawrie? Where are
those still photographs?-- Well they should be all in the - in
10
the pile of photographs that were given.
Could you identify?-- Yeah.
BENCH: There were 40 or so photographs tendered at one stage
I think, Mrs Robertson.
APPLICANT: Yes, I think these were the - the ones that are
actually-----
20
MS MELLIFONT: Exhibit 18, your Honour.
BENCH: Exhibit 18, is it? I'll give - I'll give Mr Stageman
the Court copy of those.
WITNESS: That - that would be the same photo that's from the
video. That was taken off some of the video, because there's
no date or time on the bottom of that one, so they didn't come
off the still camera. I don't know where that other one is.
30
APPLICANT: Which other one?-- It's not in this pile.
BENCH: If you could identify that photograph, Mr Stageman.
On the back there's a number - on the-----?-- Number 58, yes.
APPLICANT: Twenty-seven, number 27 I think.
BENCH: I think Mr Stageman said another number, Mrs
Robertson. What's that number again, Mr Stageman?-- There's
27 on the front.
40
Sorry, I said the back, on the bottom I meant to say;
27?-- Yeah, 27.
Thanks.
APPLICANT: Mr Stageman, 27?-- Yeah.
You said it came off the video, not the still camera?-- It
come off the video. If it had come off the camera there'd be
50
the date on the bottom of it. There's no date on that one.
Can we see the video and find this picture? Surely it must be
there. Could we please, Laurie, the entrance video?
BENCH: The entrance video, yes, we've got that. And
which-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-27
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T8/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: Andrew, please, could you stop at this scene?
1
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
APPLICANT: I think at the beginning Andrew, please?
10
BENCH: I've got him to go right back to the beginning, Ms
Robertson. Actually, you're going the wrong way, it's back to
the beginning.
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
20
BENCH: You see that photograph there, Mr Stageman?-- No, the
dogs didn't come close enough to that corner wire and then
they jumped up on the wire, on that video. It would be a copy
because otherwise the date and time would have-----
Yes, I understand what you're saying.
APPLICANT: Where would this photo come from then?-- Well, we
did a lot of copies of the photographs of the dogs taken.
30
By who, I mean-----?-- We did it at work, made copies.
So in other words, what you're supplying to us now in Court,
is only bits that someone decided to let us have?-- Well-----
And not the lot?-- -----no-one's tampered with the
photographs, it's just that there's different photographs but
there's no time or date on that one.
And the video too, you said it was part - came out of a video.
40
You said, "This came out of a video" because -----?-- Well, I
thought what had come out of the video, because we did take
some stills off the video.
So in other words, the video that we have in the Court now, is
not complete. I mean if this came out of a video and we have
the total video. All the video's supposed to be supplied to
us?-- Well, the video has been supplied to you.
So where did this come from?-- The video has been supplied to
50
you.
You said it's not from a photo. Sorry?-- The video has been
supplied. All the video footage that was taken on my camera
has been supplied.
Were there any other videos?-- No. No, the only other video
was the one from Imagination at the entrance to your property.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-28
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T8/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
Just the entrance? And this is from a video?-- I don't know
whether that could be from theirs or not because they didn't
go through your door. There's probably - that could be from
one of the still shots but when they've copied it, there's no
date on it. There was another bit of video taken from another
camera but that was when Inspector Towers-Hammond took the
last shot when all the animals were out.
How many video cameras were there? How many people brought
10
video cameras, do you know?-- There was only my camera, a
still camera and Inspector Barrond has his camera there and
used his video camera at the end, because mine went flat.
And he used his at the end? So Towers-Hammond actually didn't
use your video camera but used-----?-- He used Inspector
Barrond's camera.
Inspector Barrond's camera? And that was so - when did
Inspector Barrond come? Did he come with-----?-- He came with
20
me.
He came with you. So he was using two video cameras, yours
and his?-- No, he didn't use his at that time. We only used
the one camera and then when mine went flat, he went and got
his and they used his.
And you think this could have come from his camera?-- No, I'm
pretty sure this probably would have - because it's a still
shot but we did take some more stills, so we have continuity
30
on our photos and on the video. If there's been a copy,
either the date's been removed or it's been cut too short.
Mr Stageman, do you remember how many still cameras were used
that day, do you know?-- There was my still camera that was
used, my video camera. I think Inspector Goodfellow had his
still camera but I don't think he used it. I think they used
his camera back at the shelter and Inspector Heaton's camera.
So there's three cameras?-- No, there was only - there was
40
three cameras, yeah. My video camera, my still camera and
they used Inspector Barrond's video camera at the end.
Looking at the photo 27 again?-- Yeah.
Where were the faeces and urine in that photo? This is the
same area?-- There was faeces up the other end, closer towards
your fence. It's a bit hard to distinguish the urine because
it had been raining, but you could smell it.
50
Bearing in mind that it was raining continuously the night
before, how could you smell the urine if it was raining while
you were there and you couldn't-----?-- Mrs Robertson, the
smell that was coming from your property was absolutely
disgusting.
Lawrie, I put it to you, there's no urine and faeces smell and
we will have a look at the video again - the entrance video,
XXN: APPLICANT
7-29
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T8/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
and you have a look for - when you see faeces and urine, let
1
us know because for a smell to be, as you said, so strong,
there must be evidence of it?-- Rain, the urine, the faeces,
the smell was right through your whole property.
Well, have a look at the video and pin out where it is, okay?
BENCH: What he might be able to do is identify where he says
urine or faeces is but he can't identify where smell is
because smell doesn't come through the video.
10
APPLICANT: Yes, sorry, yes, your Honour, you're right. If
you can identify where the faeces and the urine is in the
video, that might be - I mean, for it to be so strong, the
smell is so bad, you know, as you say, it's putrid?-- You
could smell it even standing outside your property. The dogs
down in that centre aisle, inside of your house, smelt of
faeces and urine.
Lawrie, you're not the only person that's been in my house.
20
There were about 30 people went through my house that day, if
you recall? Don't you agree?-- I do - there wasn't about 30
people through your house.
Would you agree, Lawrie? Because the place - all that floor -
I've got white tiles in the house, it was clean. By the time
- at the end of the day and I can still bring some sample of
the dust and there's certainly no smell. But anyway, coming
back to the faeces and urine, if you could look at the video
again and identify where you can see of the video you have
30
taken?-- Yeah.
Yep, let us know, tell us to stop, tell-----?--
BENCH: We'll go to the beginning, Mrs Robertson.
APPLICANT: Yes, the beginning.
40
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-30
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T9/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
WITNESS: All down that alleyway there, that's all faeces and
1
mud all compacted in together. The smell that's coming from
there - those dogs were covered in faeces and mud and they -
they stunk to high hell.
BENCH: For the purposes of the transcript, that's at
11.13.39?-- Yeah.
APPLICANT: And you are saying that all that is - could you
repeat that again for me, please? All that is faeces?-- A lot
10
of that in there is faeces.
A lot of that in there is faeces, yes?-- Yeah, I - I'll give
it to you that there is a bit of mud in there as well because
- from the rain, but the majority of that is faeces and those
dogs have been trampling all in that. Those dogs' coats were
absolutely covered in that. They had nowhere to lay but in
that stuff.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, there should be a screen that's able to
20
come up like the one in - on the other side. That - I don't
know whether it's easier for you to look at that screen or the
larger one.
APPLICANT: No screen.
BENCH: No screen? I'm sorry, there should be one there. My
apologies. Are you able - you're able to see that?
APPLICANT: Yes, yes. I put it to you that those dogs are not
30
covered in faeces and urine, as you said, and all that down
there, simply because - I - the dogs were covered in urine and
faeces and we shall have a look further on because they
weren't. They were put - put in there to be held back so that
you guys can come into the place. I said at the entrance that
- I have to lock the dogs up - the puppies and anyway, we'll
have a look further on, just-----?--
BENCH: Well - well, you should respond to that, Mr
Stageman?-- Their - their paws were thick from faeces and mud.
40
APPLICANT: Their paws were thick?-- Those dogs absolutely
reeked.
All right. But keep going because I think somewhere-----
BENCH: And-----
APPLICANT: -----could you please stop when we-----
50
BENCH: -----what are you wanting him to do?
MS MELLIFONT: Well, when we move on a bit, I think there's
footage where you can see the pups clearer. These are
adolescent pups. There were three of them, and they were only
put in there to sort of - they were running free before and I
had to put them in there to separate them from the younger
ones because they could do damage and they were only held
XXN: APPLICANT
7-31
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T9/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
there so the door could be opened and they can come through -
1
the RSPCA could come through. They were seeking entry.
BENCH: And what do you want Mr Stageman to do?
APPLICANT: Keep looking at the video because further along
there will be-----
BENCH: For the purpose of-----
10
APPLICANT: -----to - to - there will be a photo, I think,
with the pups close-up.
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: And you could clearly quite see, because they
weren't covered in faeces and urine and all that stuff.
BENCH: Sorry, you've asked him to identify where he saw the
faeces and urine?
20
APPLICANT: Yes. Yes, identify that and-----
BENCH: He's done that at 11.39.
APPLICANT: Yeah, 11.39.
BENCH: 11.13.39.
APPLICANT: Yeah.
30
BENCH: Do you want him to do that on the rest - on the other
parts of the video?
APPLICANT: He said it stunk so much, but it couldn't have
stunk because it - the area came in from - it flooded in from
the back of the property.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, I'm sorry to cut you off-----
40
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: -----but that's his evidence; right?
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: We're hearing the evidence of Mr Stageman at the
moment. Are you wanting him to identify other parts where -
where he says-----
50
APPLICANT: Yeah, I think-----
BENCH: -----faeces and urine?
APPLICANT: I put it to you that there is not much faeces
there. In fact, most of it is mud and dirt from - and debris
from the yard that came - flooded in and the only
reason-----?-- I've never seen mud-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-32
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T9/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
-----you - you have-----?-- -----I've never seen mud turn into
lumps.
There was twigs and all sorts of things in there. I think
there are other footage - I think if we go further we could
see a bit more footage perhaps of that area.
BENCH: Of this area, where-----
10
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: -----we're looking at at the moment? All right.
APPLICANT: There should be.
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
20
APPLICANT: Stop. It's too late. Yeah, I think if you keep
going and stop when we-----
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
30
APPLICANT: Here we are. Hold it, please.
BENCH: For the record, that's - the video stopped at
11.13.54.
APPLICANT: I put it to you that that's mud and dirt and
leaves and things from the yard that came in?-- Well, I - I
can distinguish that there's a couple of large amounts of dog
faeces in there and the dogs would have gone in there to do
40
their business and it would have been trampled in with the mud
as well.
Which dogs went in there to do the faeces and whatnot?-- Mrs
Robertson, I don't know what dogs went in to do that. You've
got four or five dogs in there. They all go down and crap
down the back.
Can you explain to me how you could get dogs - they had the
run of the courtyard and those - the gate was open and the dog
50
will just go in there to litter and not in the
courtyard?-- You can see there's a lot of faeces in there-----
They're young pups?-- -----Mrs Robertson.
They - how do you tell the difference between mud and faeces
and debris? It has been raining for three days continuously
and that night it poured and poured - the night before - the
XXN: APPLICANT
7-33
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T9/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
early hours of the morning on and off. It was - everything
1
got soaked up. Then when it slowed down it drained off a bit.
Now, how do you sort out which is what and with all that
water, the smell is impossible, I would say?-- Well, I agree
with you, water and faeces and that makes it smell a lot worse
than what it is, but some of those dogs, they were absolutely
disgusting with the smell of it and they were caked with
faeces in-between their - the pads of their feet and that
wasn't mud.
10
Could you show one of the photos perhaps that you've got in
front of you that sort of-----?-- We didn't - I don't think I
took any photos of their - of their feet.
Why not?-- Well, I took photos of the dogs. When they were
examined there was all photos taken of them.
Well, there's a stack of photos there. Find - and they came
from that general area. There must be some - can you identify
a dog or something with-----?-- If a dog is going to walk in
20
mud and walk in faeces, of course it's going to stick to their
feet.
Mr Stageman, look at - look at number 4? It's a bit - photo
number 4, please? Maybe number 5 is better. You can see the
feet - number 5?-- Yeah.
Now, there are two cages, the cage on your left side, number
5, that - there's a dog there standing-----?-- That one there
or that one?
30
-----with the feet up - yes - standing with the feet up-----
BENCH: Which one? Sorry, for the record-----
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: -----the record doesn't show which one is being
pointed to.
40
APPLICANT: Yes, it's number 5.
BENCH: Which one?-- The middle cage.
So there's - that's photo number-----?-- 5.
-----number 5 and there are how many dogs in that
cage?-- Looks like there's three or four.
And are you referring to any one-----?-- Three.
50
-----sorry?-- Four.
APPLICANT: Five actually?-- Five is there?
BENCH: Are you referring to any - any dog in particular at
all, Mr-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-34
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T9/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: Yes, the one standing with the legs up.
1
BENCH: Which is?
APPLICANT: The one right in the middle.
BENCH: In the middle - all right, yes.
APPLICANT: Can you see faeces and matted underneath the feet?
You can see his pads - his feet?-- No.
10
Now, if you look at the dog again, all those dogs in there, do
they look wet - drenched to you?-- Do they look?
Wet?-- No, because they were inside the house.
They don't look wet to you?-- No.
Look at the coat. Have a good look. And there's one next to
it too that - that little cage with one, two, three dogs that
20
I can see - part of three dogs on page 5 - on photo number 5,
that little half on your right-hand side?-- Those ones there?
Mmm. Do they look-----?-- Where my thumb is?
-----wet to you?-- Where my thumb is?
Yes?-- Those dogs were very smelly.
They were very smelly?-- They had - they had stuff through
30
their coats.
Sorry? They had - I beg your pardon?-- They had junk all over
their coats.
Yes?-- If you look at the difference between the dogs in the
middle cage and the dogs in that other cage, there's a
considerable difference.
Colour is all I see the difference. They both look wet and
40
matted to me - wet and - can we go back to-----?-- Well, those
ones, to me, in that cage - in the middle cage, they look dry.
They look dry to you?-- Mmm.
What about the one that is - see on - the middle cage but on
the right-hand side - the middle cage, you see with a nose
poking up in the wire. There's one behind it. Does that look
dry to you, the both of them?-- Well, the one at the back
looks a bit moist but the one in - the two in the front look a
50
bit dry.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-35
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T10/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
I put it to you they are all are damp and wet looking. Do you
1
still believe that they are dry?-- Well looking at number four
the dogs in that front pen, they look wet.
Mmm-hmm. So you're looking at four?-- And their feet look all
wet.
Mmm-hmm, is wet. What about the one at the back and the
others?-- Which one's that?
10
The - number four, looking at picture number four, not the pen
with the stainless steel basin on top of it, the food bowl,
but the one on the-----?-- On the left-hand side of it?
Yes, now that dog who had his nose through the - in number
five, appears to have got his feet up now?-- Yeah.
Right. Would you say it's the same dog? The mussel looks the
same, the same colouring on the fur?-- It's the same dog that
was in photo number five.
20
Yeah, in number five that is standing with the nose poking
out; would you agree?-- Yeah.
Mmm, now he's standing up is his feet matted with - with
faeces and urine as you said they would be if there were out -
or been outside?-- I was referring to the majority of the dogs
on your property.
The majority of the dogs; okay?-- The majority of the dogs in
30
those pens were covered in faeces clogged up into their -
their feet where it took ages to get - cut it out.
Lawrie, we're talking about the dogs in the photo now?-- The
dogs in the photo-----
They came out of the pens?-- -----they were inside the house,
they may have been in a - in a bit of a-----
And they're not-----?-- ----- cleaner environment.
40
And they're dry you think? Looking at it again,
Lawrie?-- Well looking at those ones on the left-hand side
they do look dry to me. If you look at the difference between
the ones on the left-hand side and the ones in that cage with
the food bowl on top, they look very wet compact and
miserable.
I put it to you all those dogs in those - those are not pens
they live in, were in fact holding pens and they were only put
50
in there just when I saw the cars came through the drive
before I went up to the door to speak to you, and they were in
fact on the courtyard outside.
BENCH: Just a moment, Mrs Robertson.
MS MELLIFONT: There's an objection, your Honour. The witness
can't say what Mrs Robertson did when he wasn't present. Can
XXN: APPLICANT
7-36
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T10/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
I raise a further objection as well? It brings us back to the
1
matter we raised in the very beginning, that is, simply
looking at photographs and making observations of them doesn't
assist your Honour. We can all do that. The purposes of the
witnesses, insofar as the photos are concerned is to use them
in a sense to harken back to their own observations that they
saw at the time. So this process of simply doing a comparison
as to photo to photo really doesn't assist the Court and it's
taking a lot of unnecessary time, in my respectful submission.
10
BENCH: The first - the first objection, Mrs Robertson, do you
want to say anything about that? What - what the objection
is, is that Mr Stageman can't comment about what you may or
may not have done when he wasn't in the house.
APPLICANT: Mmm, all right.
BENCH: So I think that's a valid objection.
APPLICANT: Yes.
20
BENCH: The second objection is about the process of comparing
one photograph to another and what may or may not be seen when
what they are is an aid to refresh someone's memory.
APPLICANT: The - the-----
BENCH: And it's causing delay.
APPLICANT: Yes, it's not causing delay, the second objection,
30
because those dogs have been wet. They were only placed in
there in a brief period of time, within half an hour say,
before he saw them. The reason being I had to secure the
dogs.
BENCH: I - look, yes, I know that.
APPLICANT: Yes, and it's quite clear to - to me anyway, and
to others that - if they look at it, at the photos, to see
that those dogs were wet and playing in the rain. They love
40
the rain and they had been out there to exercise and I had to
secure them, these are holding pens. There is no way those
dogs live in those pens with those numbers. We do not - there
was - it was not necessary to keep dogs in the house in little
pens when I've had big kennels outside that are proper kennels
with proper shelter and proper services, like power, water and
food supplies handy. I mean, it just doesn't seem to make
sense.
BENCH: Perhaps you can-----
50
APPLICANT: And yet-----
BENCH: -----perhaps what you can put to Mr Stageman is the
dogs which he saw in the house-----
APPLICANT: Yes.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-37
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T10/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: -----did they appear the same, similar or different to
1
the dogs which were outside in the - sorry, when I say outside
I mean-----
APPLICANT: Yeah, outside in the-----
BENCH: -----in the kennels.
APPLICANT: -----in the kennels that had access to the
outside.
10
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: I think, Mr Stageman, if you - I would like you to
look at those photos again, number 5?-- Yep.
And have a good look at each and every one of them with the -
with the - in the cages that look like they have been in the
rain, and then - and after seeing the ones compared to the
ones that are outside, that are in the rain, that was still
20
outside that is number 27 I think-----?-- Yeah.
-----and see that there's - is there a difference, or no
difference, between the coat and-----?-- No, well the dogs
that were out in the rain in - in picture number 27 they were
a bit wet. The ones inside that - those two dogs look dry to
me.
Which two?-- The two in that - that's in number five.
30
BENCH: So Mr Stageman, is your evidence that the dogs which
were inside appeared to be dry to you?-- Yeah.
And the dogs which were outside appeared to be wet?-- Yeah.
APPLICANT: So all those dogs, there were five in one pen, and
three that I could see in the other pen, so altogether there's
eight dogs in two pens next to each other and they - they all
look dry to you inside?-- No, they don't all look dry to me.
The ones in that pen on the right-hand side they look wet and
40
their - their coats were covered in either faeces and urine
because they really smelled. You've only got to look at the
condition of the floor of those pens.
When you - when you went into the house was the floor as dirty
as that, as it looked in the photos of-----?-- Yes, it was.
Okay. Did you - did you actually see faeces or was it dust,
more like cluttered up dust?-- That's dust on the outside and
it also could be crushed up faeces.
50
Which dust on-----?-- I don't know, I'm not a forensic
scientist, but the smell from those cages, the condition of
the floor, the - the build up of matter in these pens.
I put to you there were no smell inside except of musty wet
dogs. There was no smell of faeces and all that - that
rubbish looking was dust and shredded paper and mud that came
XXN: APPLICANT
7-38
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T10/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
in with the shoes from the RSPCA. There was about 30 people
1
in and out, there was hardly room to walk, before the photos
were taken. They were walking all over the house inspecting
every room.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, sorry-----
APPLICANT: Sorry.
BENCH: -----you're-----
10
APPLICANT: I know what you mean, your Honour.
BENCH: What do you say about the proposition that it was dust
and that the - that the dirt was put there by you people
walking through Mrs Robertson's house?-- No, that wouldn't be
the case, your Honour, because it had been wet and it's
raining outside. All the ground was wet, so if we had have
walked in there, there would have been mud, not dry - dry
dust.
20
APPLICANT: I put it to you that you walked in with mud and
mixed it up with the dry dust and the - and that's how it made
it look so scatty and muddy?-- No, I don't agree with that Mrs
Robertson because there's - you put a tub out there for us to
step into and a towel to step onto, because you wanted to keep
that quarantine which we honoured that. So if other people
walked in there with muddy boots, that's dry, that's in that
lounge room.
30
BENCH: Mr Stageman, one of the other things Mrs Robertson put
to you was that the odour was from - musty I think you said
from - from the dogs being wet from the rain.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: What do you say about that?-- No, it's - the smell
that was coming from inside that house, your Honour, and the
whole property - I've got a pretty strong stomach and I was
even gagging.
40
APPLICANT: Mr Stageman, I put it to you none of you were
gagging, because if you were gagging I would be dead. I live
in that house the smell would have killed me?-- Well it's a
matter of what you're used to.
Yes, do I look like I'm a person that's used to that?-- No.
Exactly. Thank you. Now, back to the-----
50
BENCH: Mrs Robertson if you're going to move onto something
else I might just take a short 10 minute break.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: All right.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-39
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T11/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
THE COURT ADJOURNED
1
THE COURT RESUMED
LAWRENCE STAGEMAN, CONTINUING:
10
CROSS-EXAMINATION:
BENCH: Yes, Mrs Robertson?
APPLICANT: Thank you. Mr Stageman, in your affidavit dated
4th of August, you said six - paragraph 6, okay, "I then
20
started to inspect the property. Just off to the left of the
entrance, I sighted a number of poodle dogs in an outside
yard. It was lightly raining and I saw that there was a large
amount of dog faeces all over the ground. The dogs there had
matted hair and were covered in faeces on their coats. There
was a strong smell coming from the dogs' coats." Now do we
need to show the entrance again? Would you like to see it
again?-- No, when I first went through there, there was a lot
of faeces in there. You started cleaning it up. You headed
in there with a shovel and started raking it all up.
30
All right. So I started cleaning it up? And that was the
first thing in the morning, about 10.35, I'd say about
11?-- When I first entered into the property and when we were
talking to you, you went in there with a shovel and started
cleaning up, which is you know-----
The voice recording started at 10.35, okay? So, it's got to
be, with all the discussion we had, by the time we got through
the door, it would be at least 11, that's 20, 25
40
minutes?-- Yeah, it was a fair length of time out the front.
Um, I think it possibly could be a bit later?-- Mmm.
But because we have also the video, that's got a time on
it?-- Yeah.
So, let's assume it's 11, you know, and there was a whole lot
of faeces on the left-hand side that looked clean to us in the
video?-- There was faeces up the back but the front area-----
50
But you said here-----?-- -----was a bit clean.
Right, but you said here just off to the left of the entrance,
which was where the dogs were - the pups were-----?-- Yeah,
that was those golden looking ones.
Yeah, where there was a partition?-- Yeah.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-40
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T11/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
On 27, you could see the pups. Now, you said that the place
was loaded, right, "I sighted a number of poodle dogs in the
outside yard." Which is that section, okay?-- Yeah.
"It was slightly raining", there was a bit of drizzle all
day-----?-- Yeah.
"And I saw that there was a large amount of dog faeces all
over the ground"?-- There - it was scattered on the ground.
10
There was-----
Scattered?-- There was a lot of it back where they had been,
up in that one area but scattered over-----
Which area?-- -----the ground, there was faeces.
I think maybe if we see the entrance video again, please. At
the start, could you please have a look and say stop when
you're ready?--
Yeah. On that entrance video, there's no
faeces around where the dogs were because that had already
20
been cleaned up.
When did I clean up?-- You were in there with a shovel
cleaning it up.
When?-- That morning.
Lawrie, you were with me all morning, all day in fact?-- I was
with you all morning-----
30
Yes?-- -----and either you cleaned it up 'cause you had the
shovel there. There was - when we first walked in, there was
faeces there, there wasn't a whole lot in that front area on
the left-hand side, there was a bit back, there was scattered
on the ground.
There was a bit back, where, if you could show me on the
video?-- It doesn't show on the video, just says the front
area on the video.
40
All right. Where was it before I cleaned it up?-- It was on
the ground.
Could you point it on the video, we're going to show it
again?-- It's not on the video, Mrs Robertson.
Yes, it's coming when you're ready?--
It's cleaned.
But where was it before I cleaned it?-- It was all over the
place.
50
Well just point to it. We're going to run the video?-- Well,
there's no point pointing to a video when it's clean.
Yeah, but you said you saw it?-- The faeces was on there.
Did you see it or you didn't see it?-- I did see it, otherwise
I wouldn't have mentioned it.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-41
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T11/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
Well just try and remember where it is and point where the
clean areas were, where it should have faeces. That might be
the way to do it?
BENCH: All right then, we'll turn the video on, Mrs
Robertson, and Mr Stageman, if you could tell my clerk to stop
the video where - in the general area where you say saw it and
then point out on the - where you say you saw it?-- Yeah.
10
The faeces?
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
WITNESS: Stop.
20
BENCH: Right, I think you'll need to go back?-- Yeah, just
turn back a bit. Where the faeces was, there was little bits
and pieces over the yard but there was a bit of - up the back
where the entrance for the fence was.
BENCH: Well all right, we'll go back where you want to.
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
30
WITNESS: Just back a bit. There was a lot more faeces there
when we first got there.
BENCH: Just go back a couple of frames?-- I had - those dogs
in that area, I had no dramas with them really. Like they
were wet, they were a bit smelly, there was faeces on them, I
didn't - wasn't greatly concerned about these ones.
40
Well at the moment, we're looking at 11.13.30 on the video.
So this is the area that you're talking about in paragraph 6
of your affidavit?-- Yeah, there was faeces in there but Mrs
Robertson must have cleaned it up. But I had, as I said to
Mrs Robertson, I had no dramas with those dogs.
So it's 11.13.30 and there were faeces there and I cleaned it
up?-- Well there was faeces there - the faeces is gone, so you
have cleaned it up.
50
But you were with me there-----?-- Pardon?
-----all morning. We were there together. Now when did I
clean it?-- We had this discussion last time and I wasn't with
you all the time-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-42
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T11/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Lawrie-----?-- -----'cause I had to send somebody to come up
1
and get you on numerous occasions to take you down the back.
No?-- You and I did go down the back first off.
Nobody could get to the back without me because all the gates
were locked?-- Yeah, I went down the back with you-----
Yes, all the gates were locked. We were up at the entrance
and the photos were taken-----?-- The photos were taken as I
10
come through the door and then when I spoke to you, then we
went down the back. There was you, me and there was
Goodfellow and Steve. And we went down to the back kennels.
I was going to let you keep some of the dogs and I took
photographs as I was going along. Then we went back up to the
house again.
Right, we're up at the house now. When was this - if we went
back to the house, the time is - we can't account for the
time, they don't add up, Lawrie? You look at it. It's 11.13
20
and I'm supposed to have gone down to the - and you arrived at
10.35. We were arguing on the drive for about - the better
part of half an hour?-- We weren't arguing probably but I'm
not too sure how long we were arguing. But we were for 15
minutes or more, then we went in, we had a quick look, we did
go down the back. At that particular time, there was no
videos taken because I hadn't got the video out, I was taking
still pictures.
Lawrie, your audiotape will give us the time because it kept
30
recording. There was a lot of blank at the start, right, and
that was during the time when you came down and asked me about
my name and everything else. And then we came to who - the
rest of it, I think we've got a transcript of it. But the
part that you asked me about my person, my name, address and
date of birth and all that, was not - we couldn't hear it
because it was very loud. Would you agree?-- Yeah, the whole
tape - it just - it's a while ago, I kind of kind of remember
a lot of things. I'll be honest with that, it is hard 'cause
you kind of listen to that and you kind of remember what you
40
said and it is very hard.
Yep okay. Now you said that the - in this courtyard - and on
your affidavit, you said that it was like raining, like a
large amount of dog faeces all over the ground. Large means
massive. You know, plenty - and I've cleaned it up. The
question I'm interested in-----?-- There wasn't - it - what
I'm saying is, when I looked in, on the affidavit, there was
not just that yard, there was the yard in front that I was
incorporating that as well. In that little alleyway with all
50
the faeces.
So now you're saying, now-----?-- Well, I said I looked at
the-----
-----that was not right?-- I looked at the yard to the left
and there was dogs in there. There was an amount of faeces in
XXN: APPLICANT
7-43
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T11/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
there. The dogs were smelly. They had faeces around their
1
feet.
Faeces around their feet?-- That's what I said on the
affidavit.
Which dog has faeces around their feet?-- Well you can see it
around their feet.
Doesn't it look like mud to you, it looks like mud to
10
me?-- Well I can't-----
Water, dirty, muddy water?-- -----see any mud - I can't see
any mud in there.
Well-----?-- Just clean concrete.
-----the ground is not clean, the ground is muddy. It looks
like it has been like that for a while. Would you agree or
not? Look at it?-- It has been wet for a while, you can see
20
the water puddles.
That's right and it's not clear water, it looks like muddy
water to me and the dog is obviously tramping around that
section; do you agree?-- Well there was faeces there when I
saw it.
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-44
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T12/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
There was faeces there; okay. Now the dogs there had matted
1
hair and were covered with faeces on their coats. Now, have a
good look again. Shall we move it along and sort of backwards
perhaps, Andrew. Have a good look at the coat please.
MS MELLIFONT: Can I just provide Mr Stageman with his
affidavit so he can follow along?
BENCH: Certainly.
10
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.
TAPE PLAYED
APPLICANT: Video, Lawrie?-- That's all clean. When I first
saw that there was faeces on the ground.
20
All right?-- Otherwise I wouldn't have put it in there.
Okay. Okay, I agree with you on that thing that you said, you
know, that if that's the case. I don't agree with you, but
you know, you believe that there is okay, now when did I clean
it? When did I have the time to clean it, Lawrie? Look at
the time, 11.13, and then we went on-----?-- Yeah, but what
I'm trying to get through to you Mrs Robertson, is this video
tape was taking probably 11.13 it was not taken as I first
30
went in, 'cause all I had on me when I went in there was my
still camera. The video wasn't taken until we came back and I
instructed [indistinct] to get the camera out of my car.
Okay. Right. You - you arrived at the premises at
10.35?-- Yes.
Right. We - we were having a dispute outside where you asked
me my name, address and all that. I would think that would
take at least about 45 minutes?-- Yeah.
40
But-----?-- Well I - I can honestly say, I'm not really aware
of that time.
Yeah?-- I'm not, honest.
Okay. You're not aware, but the - the audio tape we can tape
it and time it; right?-- Yeah.
So it would take say about half an-hour, that's giving you the
50
benefit of the doubt. So we come into the entrance then,
right, that would put us about that time 11.13, and you said
at the time of entry the place was littered - right, full of -
what was it "large amount of dog faeces all over the ground on
the left-hand side." And this video obviously showed the time
is about right. In fact, we are really pushing it tight in
time, it should be later than that. If that's the case then
where are the faeces? And you said that I've cleaned it;
XXN: APPLICANT
7-45
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T12/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
okay, so that'll take some time. When did I clean it?-- I
1
honestly don't know.
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, these questions-----
WITNESS: I know there was a shovel there.
MS MELLIFONT: Excuse me, Mr Stageman. These questions have
been asked about three or four times now. Mr Stageman has
given answers three or four times now. That's my objection.
10
APPLICANT: Okay. I'll move on.
BENCH: Do you understand - Mrs Robertson - all right, move
on, good. Are you going to move on Mrs Robertson, or do you
want me to respond to the objection?
APPLICANT: Let's move on.
BENCH: Okay.
20
APPLICANT: The - can we see the exit video please? Have you
got it?
BENCH: Can you help me with a number, Mrs Robertson?
APPLICANT: Twenty-four, Exhibit 24.
BENCH: Is that?
30
APPLICANT: I don't know.
BENCH: Is the CD a copy of that? Or is it 20?
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, I can play - I've got a CD of it.
BENCH: Oh, you've got a CD have you.
MS MELLIFONT: I can play it from here, and the laptop's
hooked up. So can we just play it from here?
40
BENCH: Yes, that's all right.
ASSOCIATE: How do I - how do we view the vision? One?
MS MELLIFONT: Two.
ASSOCIATE: Two.
MRS ROBERTSON: I've got a copy of it.
50
MS MELLIFONT: That's - I've got a copy here, Mrs Robertson,
this is it.
BENCH: Which exhibit number is it?
MS MELLIFONT: It is 24.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-46
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T12/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: It is 24.
1
MS MELLIFONT: The original-----
BENCH: Yes, I've got-----
MS MELLIFONT: -----[indistinct] replaced the CD. I've got it
on here, but we haven't got it on there. We might take your
version, Mrs Robertson, and play it through your system.
10
APPLICANT: Yeah, it's easier.
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.
EXHIBIT 24 PLAYED
20
APPLICANT: Could we go back to the start, please? Mr
Stageman, could you look and see where there's a lot of
scraping sounds - sounds - sounded like someone is
cleaning?-- I could hear that.
Yes?-- Yeah. It sounded like a shovel.
Now - yes, what do you think caused that sound?-- I don't
know.
30
You don't know?-- I didn't take the video.
Well let's have a look at the video when it starts and it
shows the left - the entrance and then to the left. Right, it
sounds like someone is cleaning. Now I-----
EXHIBIT 24 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
40
APPLICANT: Now, would you say that I have been cleaning, that
sound was made by me or was it just someone cleaning?-- I
don't know, Mrs Robertson, I wasn't there when that video was
taken.
Right. You - you made a point that I had cleaned the left
courtyard earlier on-----?-- When I-----
50
-----on the entrance-----?-- -----when I first walked in there
was faeces there.
Yes, okay?-- The faeces vanished when the video came.
The video came immediately on your entrance looking at the
time. It's impossible for the faeces, if there were faeces
there, to be cleaned.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-47
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T12/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
BENCH: Well Mrs Robertson, on that point, I'll have to take
you to page six of the transcript which was handed up this
morning.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Now, someone there says, about a third of the way
down, after the words in italics "very loud barking" so we
can't hear words over the noise. Someone says, "Go and get my
10
video camera."
APPLICANT: Yes, I've got that. I think it's page 6. I've
been talking to you for all that time since 10.45 - 10.35,
which is what five pages of transcript and then someone said,
"Go and get my video camera." That would be on entry wouldn't
it, Mr Stageman? Someone said, I think it could be you, "Go
and get my video camera."
On page 6, can you see
that?-- Yeah, I did say to Jed to go and get my camera.
20
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-48
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T13/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
And then you started videoing the courtyard? So that's at
1
11.13, that's about quarter past 11?-- Well as far as I know
the time was right on the video, I couldn't get the date to
go.
Now I was talking to you all that time, from 10.35 to 11.13,
when the video - or 11 o'clock anyway, 11.10 or whatever. Now
I have managed to talk to you and clean the courtyard
also?-- Well I don't know, Mrs Robertson, but when I first saw
it as I said before, there was faeces in there and then during
10
that time, it disappeared. The video came in after because I
was taking still photos. ***************************
So I put it to you that the comments you made about that
courtyard being full of faeces is not true? In your affidavit
you said that-----?-- There was faeces in that courtyard, Mrs
Robertson.
How could there be faeces? You just listened to all the - and
saw the evidence. How could it, the time?--
20
BENCH: I'm sorry to cut you off, but I have heard this, I
think this is the sixth time we've been over this point. I
understand what you're saying and I also understand what Mr
Stageman's saying. You've put it to him that you couldn't
have cleaned it.
APPLICANT: It's just not possible in the timeframe. Anyway,
we'll move on to the exit video and the scraping sounds you
heard just now?-- Mrs Robertson, I didn't take this video, I
30
wasn't with Inspector Towers-Hammond when he took this video.
Would you agree, I put it to you, would you agree that that
courtyard doesn't - it looks the same as in your entrance
video as in your exit video, the condition of it?-- It's
clean.
As in the entrance video too, it showed clean too, didn't it
or did it?-- The entrance video?
40
Hmm, the video that you took-----?-- When I first went through
there, there was faeces there. As I've said to you-----
Right, okay?-- -----someone's cleaned it otherwise I wouldn't
have put it in my affidavit if I didn't see it.
Okay, we'll move on. The reason you didn't see, I put it to
you Mr Stageman, is that there were no faeces there in the
first place because due to the time - timing difference, you
just can't account for me cleaning up the faeces when I'm with
50
you all that time and not only was I was with you-----
BENCH: Mrs Robertson-----
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, I'm going to make an objection
again. These grounds have been traversed, the questions have
been asked and answered. Any further comment that Mrs
XXN: APPLICANT
7-49
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T13/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Robertson wishes to make can, of course, be made to you in
1
closing submissions.
APPLICANT: Okay.
BENCH: That's right, Mrs Robertson. We have gone across -
over this ground on a number of occasions.
APPLICANT: Yes. Where are the poodles now, Mr Stageman, do
you know where my poodles are?-- Most of the poodles are at
10
the RSPCA and some poodles are out on foster.
When you were - on the day of the seizure, on the 9th, you
agreed to deliver photos to me of each and every dog in a
colour photograph, a list of all the dogs that were seized and
a full description, and you deferred it on the 10th, you rang
me and said you couldn't get them ready, and you were coming
on the 11th to deliver them to me. Why didn't you do
it?-- Because I didn't have a lot to do with that. Inspector
Towers-Hammond was dealing with that.
20
What was the reason he gave you for not delivering it?-- I
didn't ask him.
The photos that were promised to me?-- I didn't ask him.
Inspector Towers-Hammond seemed to take over the thing, so it
just was all in his hands.
Who is in charge of this raid?-- I was.
30
Who gave the orders? You were?-- I was.
So you planned this raid and decided to raid me because of all
these alleged complaints?-- The information that I received.
Okay, right. Now how did Inspector Towers-Hammond take over
charge?-- Inspector Towers-Hammond has been appointed the
senior inspector, as was said in the video and as I said to
you, that I was going to take some of the dogs and I was going
to issue you with an animal welfare direction.
40
Yes at some point in time you did entertain that thought,
yes?-- Yes, Inspector Towers-Hammond came and said that we
were taking the lot.
Who does Inspector Towers-Hammond report to? Who is his
boss?-- His boss is Michael Pecic.
Michael?-- Pecic.
50
How do you spell that?-- P-E-C-I-C.
Ah?-- We had a - we conferred with it and changed - said that
we're going to take them. So, we ended up taking all the
dogs.
Who is Michael Pecic?-- Michael Pecic is our chief inspector.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-50
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T13/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
The chief inspector of RSPCA Queensland?-- Yeah.
1
Who does he report to, his boss?-- No, a senior inspector.
Yes?-- An inspector makes their own decisions.
But it's got to come from somewhere? It's just like someone
has got to pay the wages?-- Well, he's a senior inspector. All
inspectors make the decisions on what they do.
10
So, although it was-----?-- Inspector Towers-Hammond came to
assist and-----
Took over?-- -----sort of like, took over it.
On the senior inspector's advice?-- Yeah.
And you didn't have a say in that?-- Pardon?
And you did not have a say in that?-- Well, if its him that
20
just took over - it was conferred, we had a conference with
each other and Shayne said, "Oh, we're taking the lot, that's
it."
Who was at the conference? There was you-----?-- There was
me, Steve Barrond-----
Yes?-- Jed Goodfellow.
Jed Goodfellow? Who is Jed Goodfellow?-- Jed Goodfellow is a
30
casual inspector.
Who is Steve Barrond?-- Steve Barrond is the Toowoomba
inspector.
Toowoomba inspector? He's in charge of Toowoomba?-- Yeah.
And who else was there?-- Two volunteer inspectors.
What do you mean by volunteer inspectors?-- We have inspectors
40
that come and assist the inspectors-----
Ah, yes?-- -----they're classed as volunteer inspectors.
What were their names?-- Joanne and Petra.
Joanne who? Where does she come from? The honorary ones,
we're talking about now?-- Sorry?
Are they the honorary inspectors, they call them?-- The
50
volunteer inspectors, yeah.
Volunteer, yes. Do you know her name, her surname?-- I can't
think of her surname, I know her first name's Joanne.
Where does she come from, how did she become involved in an
RSPCA?-- They apply to the RSPCA.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-51
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T13/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Sorry?-- They apply to the RSPCA-----
1
To be an inspector?-- -----the volunteer section. Yeah.
So in other words, if I went and applied, I could be an
inspector too?-- Well, they go through a criteria. They have
to do 20 hours training in the call centre and then the RSPCA
to get an idea of what calls they get and all that sort of
thing. Then they come out and they help us. They don't make
any decisions.
10
They don't make decisions?-- No, they're not allowed to make
any decisions, they're not allowed to converse with anyone we
speak to.
What is their purpose of being in that meeting?-- Well they're
just there to assist us if we need any assistance - if we got
to-----
What sort of training and background do they have?-- I don't
20
know.
You don't know?-- No, but they have to do-----
So you've got two-----?-- They have to do training at the
RSPCA.
They do their training at RSPCA and they can act as that.
They get nominated as volunteer inspectors?-- Well, they have
to do 20 hours in the call centre, which is taking complaints,
30
so they get an idea of what people they deal with, what
complaints they get, so they have an understanding of the
different complaints the RSPCA gets and all they do is just
come out and assist us, if required.
Get a feel for the job, so to speak?-- Pardon?
Get a feel for the duties?-- Yes.
Of their responsibilities, so to speak?-- Well, they don't
40
have any responsibilities.
They don't have any responsibilities?-- No.
Do they have a surname, the both of them, Petra and?-- I can't
remember their surnames, Petra, I can't think of their names
'cause I just refer to them as Joanne, Petra or wherever they
come out.
Are they involved in any other job or-----?-- They go out with
50
other inspectors.
Not as a full-time thing but on a volunteer basis?-- Yeah,
just once a week, they come out at that particular day
for-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-52
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T14/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Are they breeders or perhaps kennel maids or-----?-- Well,
1
they have to do a certain amount of all that as part of their
volunteer - they're not - they're not paid, they're just -
volunteer and they're classed as volunteer inspectors. They
come out with us. They assist us. They may write down
paperwork or something like that.
Freebie do-gooders, yeah?-- Yeah.
Okay. Now, so there was five of you?-- Yeah.
10
That make the decision to take over from you - your
case?-- No, I didn't - we didn't speak to the volunteers.
Mmm?-- It was - the conversation we had was between Shayne,
Steve, Jed and myself, and Shayne just said, "We're going to
take them", so - "Take all of them."
"Shayne", meaning Shayne Towers-Hammond?-- Mmm.
20
So he sort of took over your case?-- Kind of.
Kind of. Right. Then when did the direction change?-- Well,
when the animals were seized and as I was going to write them
all down and take photos of everything and then it was
decided, because there was so many dogs, it'd be done back at
the refuge.
He was the one that actually gave the order to seize the dogs
and he was - Shayne Towers-Hammond - and he was also the one
30
that decided to take over your case and he was the one who
also promised me the photographs and individual photographs
with the full description-----
BENCH: Sorry, Mrs Robertson, didn't you say that Mr Stageman
was that person?
APPLICANT: Sorry?
BENCH: Didn't you - didn't you put it to Mr Stageman that
40
he'd - he'd done that, he'd promised to provide the
photographs?
APPLICANT: Well, he promised to deliver the photographs to
me, but it was Towers-Hammond who - who actually volunteered
and promised me, because I was very distressed, obviously
because of the costs of the dogs and they belonged to some
other people, some of them, and I was very concerned and-----
BENCH: All right. So it was - it wasn't Mr Stageman-----
50
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: -----who promised you-----
APPLICANT: Mr Stageman did say he started listing a list of
names.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-53
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T14/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: Mmm.
1
APPLICANT: A description, he said, during seizure, but it was
- went very quickly. Everybody just snatched and grabbed and
Towers-Hammond came and said later - he promised me a picture
- coloured picture with a full detailed description.
BENCH: I just wanted to - all I wanted to do was clarify with
you because I thought you'd put it to Mr Stageman that he'd
made that promise to you.
10
APPLICANT: Yeah, he made the promise to deliver it to me.
BENCH: To-----
APPLICANT: To deliver what Towers-Hammond promised me.
BENCH: Okay. All right.
APPLICANT: To me.
20
BENCH: I've got that.
APPLICANT: Is - am I correct?-- Well, I did say to you that
I'd be with you on this all the way - all the way through.
About the photos and the description?-- Yeah, but then I-----
Yes?-- -----when we went back and - because all the dogs were
sent to the refuge because it was getting late in the day and
30
we wanted to get them looked at and put away safely and
normally we take photographs as we're loading the dogs onto
the vehicle. This time it didn't happen, it was all going to
be done at the refuge so they'd be tagged and numbered-----
Because everybody grabbed and snatched-----
MS MELLIFONT: Sorry. This witness had not finished his
answer.
40
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: And I - and, Ms Robertson, he hasn't accepted that it
was a grab and snatch, it's your terminology.
APPLICANT: Would you - would you agree that everybody was so
eager, they were just grabbing the dogs and loading it and you
were trying desperately to write the names down-----?-- Yeah,
I was.
50
-----the description? Was it, please, for the - for the
recorder?--
MS MELLIFONT: Well, there's - there's two questions in that.
The first part is that everybody was grabbing and snatching
and the second is that he was desperately trying to write it
down. I'm not sure which part of that he's agreed to.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-54
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T14/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: Would you agree that-----?-- I'm trying to write
1
down the dogs as they're coming out, so I've got a list of the
dogs, but because they were all - everything went and then
Shayne said, "Oh, we'll do it all back at the - the shelter",
so I stopped doing it.
So really, you didn't have a - you didn't have any say in that
as to whether the dogs should be identified or not?-- Well,
they were all put in the cars and by that time-----
10
So virtually a snatch action-----?-- -----I lost count-----
-----yep, snatch-----?-- -----well, I don't know about snatch
and grab, but everyone was-----
Mr Stageman-----?-- -----was - I know everyone was picking the
animals up to - to avoid less stress for the animals and I
know in some cases that you have to pick the animals up by
their front legs and walk them because none of them were used
to a lead.
20
-----Mr Stageman, I put it to you if you recollect, that they
weren't walked, they were actually all lassoed with a choker
lead and dragged out?-- There was a couple of incidents where
I saw that happen-----
I insisted-----?-- -----and I did say to them, "Don't do
that."
Yes. I insisted they walk the dogs and they didn't?-- Mmm.
30
They just grabbed them and snatched them and they were choking
away?-- And because you showed me a way of doing it by picking
up their legs and walking them in a-----
Yes. Okay. So you agree that you did - yeah, okay. Now-----
MS MELLIFONT: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, it's not at all clear
what he's agreed to. I'm not sure if Mrs Robertson is seeking
to finish that answer. There's been some agreement by this
40
witness that he observed a couple of dogs in respect of a
lasso and then the question wasn't finished and the answer
wasn't finished, so far as I can recall.
WITNESS: The dogs had - they weren't lassoed, they had slip
knot leads that we put over-----
APPLICANT: Choker leads?-- -----over an animal and it slips
up. There's a big ring on them that stops it from causing any
harm to the animals and in some cases there was a couple of
50
animals that had to be dragged and I told them, "Don't do
that,. You know, pick it up and walk with it." Mrs Robertson
showed me a good way of doing it where you pick them up by the
front paws and they just walk behind you.
BENCH: All right. Now - and you say there were a couple of
animals like that?-- There was a couple of animals that - that
were dragged and I - I approached them and told them, "Don't
XXN: APPLICANT
7-55
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T14/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
do it. You know, do a bit differently than that." Some of
1
the animals wouldn't know what a lead was, so they were
getting a bit - probably stressed with that and so that's -
someone would pick them up and carrying them.
APPLICANT: Mr Stageman, I put it to you that the dogs were
terrified. There were more people than dogs at some point in
time and those dogs were, as you said, lassoed and, as I said,
choker lead because it was a choking lead. It was the lead
put through a loop and it tightened as you pulled and they
10
weren't particular about whether - when the tightening - the
correct way to apply a choker lead is over the back of the
neck, the right way, and walking them the wrong way - walking
them the right way, but a lot of them didn't even bother, they
just put the lasso over the neck and they just grabbed and
that was choking it?-- Well, I didn't see - I didn't see all
of them-----
Yes?-- -----handle the dogs, Mrs Robertson.
20
Well, I understand that, that you didn't see all of them
because there were so many people and so many dogs and the
dogs couldn't walk on the lead because they were terrified.
People were coming to them and strangers were just putting
leads - putting ropes over their necks and choking. The fact
that nobody bit anyone was amazing. They were all petrified.
If those dogs were vicious and as-----
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, look, I'm really sorry-----
30
APPLICANT: Yeah.
BENCH: -----but it has to be a question not a statement.
APPLICANT: Okay. Now, would you agree that the dogs were
loaded up hastily?-- Hastily?
Yes?-- It's - in some cases I'd say they were, trying to get
them in the vehicles because there were so many of the dogs -
to get them back to the shelter. As I said to you, that I did
40
pick up on a couple of them, told them, "Don't handle them
that way." Others were carried out. Most of them were
carried out and then some of them walked out as - the way you
showed me, the ones that I had dealings with, but I wasn't
everywhere at once when they were transporting animals.
Right. Okay. Now, the dogs that were transported, right,
according to - according to the last time you were in the
witness box, you said that there was a couple of eight dog
trailers. There was one four dog trailer and there were four
50
- four vehicles with dog cages?-- Council vehicles.
Council vehicles with dog cages in them?-- Yeah.
And they all did one trip because of the time?-- Yeah.
So that means the carrying capacity for a normal load for
those number of cages accounted for and trailers would be 24
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T14/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
dogs at one trip. There was two eight trailers. That's 16
1
and there was one by four - that's 16 and four - that's 20 and
there were four single dog cages in the council cars -
vehicles, so that's four, so all up, if they were travelling
in reasonable comfort, it would be 24, assuming they're large
compartments for a large dog?-- Mmm.
Right. And do you agree to that?-- Well, our compartments in
our eight dog trailers are large compartments. You can put
four dogs in - larger dogs in those compartments.
10
What size dogs?-- Pardon?
What size dogs can you put four?-- Standard sized poodles,
Rottweilers, German shepherds.
I disagree with you. How big would you say the measurements
were because I saw those eight compartments?-- Most of those -
those compartments-----
20
I measured-----?-- -----are probably a bit more than 900 by
900.
So 900 by 900 can usually take one dog. That is the size
of-----?-- You can put two to three dogs in there, that they
can't turn around but they can sit down if you're going to
transport them for a short distance.
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T15/KDB(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
You can put two or three dogs in there that they can't turn
1
around but they can sit down if you're going to transport them
for a short distance.
Mr Stageman, I put it to you that 900 by 900 is the size of
one of those kennels - in fact, it's the size of the kennel.
BENCH: You and I would probably say it was three feet by
three feet, Mrs Robertson.
10
APPLICANT: Mmm. Three feet by two feet something.
BENCH: Well 900 is three feet.
APPLICANT: Exhibit 45. 18 - I think, Exhibit 18. The
photograph is 45?-- I don't know how - how big the-----
Can you please look at that?-- -----Council cages were 'cause
I never measured them; I never saw them.
20
I measured them because-----?-- Well, I didn't know that.
-----I'm used to cages and they weren't 900 by 900 - they're
900 and less on the other - the narrow side. The widest is
900?-- I've made dog cages and I've made dog cages 900 by 900
as a standard large cage.
The trailer - because the trailer were long?-- They were long.
They're big-----
30
There were-----?-- -----compartments in-----
-----four in each?-- -----a - in a eight dog trailer.
Yeah?-- Yeah.
Remember I put my head in one-----?-- Yeah.
-----and I had a good look, and I also went and measured one.
They would be about the size of 44 and 45 exhibits. That is
40
in fact a hundred and something on the length?-- They're those
- those - they're those large foldaway cages.
Yes. They are over a hundred - 105, I think-----?-- Yeah,
well they're - they're longer.
-----on the length but-----?-- Yeah.
-----the - the width would be 90, thereabouts.
50
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, this witness didn't measure these
cages, can't speak to the dimensions. Everybody knows what
900 mil by 900 mil is.
APPLICANT: Yes. It's roughly about the same. Okay. Now,
that would take one large size dog in reasonable comfort;
right? So, in other words, there's 24 large size dogs in one
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T15/KDB(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
hit?-- Well, I've got no doubt there - there was more than -
1
than one or two dogs in the cages.
Yes?-- We had to transport them and that's what happened. But
I wasn't there watching everything that went on.
Yes. I appreciate that. Now, there was a 104 dogs jammed
into 24 spaces in reasonable comfort. If normally 24 will
have reasonable comfort being transported?-- But remember
there was two trips from our big dog trailer. We had to wait
10
for it to come back.
There wasn't two trips, I put it to you?-- There was two trips
because-----
No?-- -----we had to wait for Katie to bring the dog trailer
back again, and then it was you - you, me and Shayne Towers-
Hammond were - were loading the dogs into the dog trailer just
before we left.
20
Lawrie, there could not be two trips because three dog
trailers took dogs off RSPCA premises the same day they came
in; right?-- Beg your pardon.
Three - three trailer full of dogs - three trailer loads of
dogs were shifted from the Fairfield premises the day it came
in, I put it to you - the day the dogs were taken there, they
were checked out by the vet and they were sent off?-- They
were not.
30
All right?-- That's very untrue. Those dogs remained at the
RSPCA shelter.
For how long - all those dogs?-- Until they were examined by a
vet; till they were clipped-----
That's right?-- -----and then it was decided to foster some
animals to give them a bit of a social environment rather than
stuck in the pens.
40
Yes?-- They were not shipped out to go anywhere else.
In what time frame would you say?-- I don't know when the dogs
went to the refuge - I know for a damn fact that those dogs
did not leave that refuge the same day. They did not leave
the next day. They were there for quite a few days being
examined by the veterinarian and being clipped.
I put it to you that 46 of those dogs left long before the
weekend of the 13th-----?-- No, they didn't.
50
-----the Sunday, the 13th?-- I'm sorry, Mrs Robertson, that -
that's not RSPCA's policy. If we seize an animal off anybody,
it remains at the RSPCA or for a certain period of time till
it's examined, given a clean bill of health, and then to stop
the animal from being in the shelter environment, we will
foster them out to homes, but they still are in control of the
RSPCA. We do not give them to anybody.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T15/KDB(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
Mr Stageman, did you physically inspect and count those dogs
on the 10th of January, the day after the seizure, all those
dogs?-- Well, I didn't count them. Other - the - Jed and
Katie, who were taking photos, counted the dogs and tagged the
dogs when they arrived.
Jed and Katie. Now-----?-- Because as they were going in
there, remember I still at your place with-----
10
No, on the 10th?-- On the 10th.
The next day?-- I didn't have anything to do with the dogs at
the 10th. They were still being examined.
From the 10th onwards?-- Yeah, they were still being examined
by the veterinarian.
But you didn't have anything to do with the dogs from the 10th
onwards?-- No.
20
They were left in the custody of the people?-- At the RSPCA.
Yes. Okay. Now, do you agree with me that there were just
too many dogs, 104, jammed into those 24 compartments for
transportation?-- As I said, Mrs Robertson, I didn't know how
many dogs were put into the Council.
I appreciate that?-- I was - so, I can't really give you an
answer on that because I don't know.
30
But if I collected 24 dogs and jammed them in 24 compartments,
say 900 by 900, right, that would be too many dogs, wouldn't
you say?-- It would be too many dogs, yes.
Yes. Okay. Thank you. Now, the next thing perhaps you can
help me out with, Benji Kennel dogs - Benji Kennels
dogs-----?-- Yeah.
-----there were 12 puppies that belonged to Benji
40
Kennels?-- In Singapore, yeah.
Yes. Did I tell you that they were due for shipment the
following 10 days-----?-- Yes.
-----or the following week?-- Yes.
Okay. Did I give you the documents for them to contact
regarding appointments I'd made for shipping?-- You did. You
did, and I did follow that through.
50
What happened?-- The shelter personnel took the dogs to the
vet at the - the vet over at Ascot. Is that the vet that does
them?
No?-- Not Ascot - I can't think of the area. There's a vet
that they go to first for - they had to be micro chipped and
vaccinated again.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T15/KDB(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
Who told you which vet to go to?-- You did.
I had-----?-- You give me the list from - from the - from the
Government transportation.
Yes?-- And what vet they have to go to.
Yes. The appointments were made, yes?-- Yeah. We did take
them to the vet. The vet refused to do it because no payment
10
had been made.
Lawrie, can I ask you another question?-- Yeah.
Now, how did you know which were the 12 puppies that belonged
to Benji Kennels?-- Because you gave me the list of them.
Yes. But they all sound alike. There was - there were all up
red standard poodle puppies, three months old. There was
three, four, five - I think about six or seven-----?-- Eight
20
poodles, the two poms and the two labradors.
Yes. But you took a whole lot more dogs than that was
specified, and they were all about the same age?-- You told me
- you showed me the dogs that were in the cage-----
No?-- -----that were going - the quarantine dogs.
No, I didn't show you the dogs. I gave you a list of
dogs?-- Yeah.
30
A detailed list of description, and I needed - I believe when
I spoke to you I needed to identify and microchip each of
those 12 dogs because they came from different breeders and
only I could identify them because it was a time - I know the
difference?-- Well, I - I did say to the shelter and I
did-----
Yes?-- -----contact the government body - the shelter manager
took the animals to the vets. The vets wouldn't accept them
40
because there was no payment made. I brought them back. I
sent a letter to your solicitor stating that the air fare and
the other medication and that had to be paid for. The RSPCA
wasn't paying for it.
Mr Stageman, I put it to you that you were supposed - I think
as my lawyers had been in touch and was rather concerned about
the transportation of those dogs which you promised me you
would attend to. We also said to you - my lawyers also write
to you to say that I must identify each dog and microchip
50
them-----?-- Yeah.
-----because any dogs leaving the country has got to be
clearly identified?-- I know.
Yes.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, is this relevant to-----
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T15/KDB(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
APPLICANT: It is relevant, your Honour, being sued for dogs
that have stolen.
BENCH: Well, it might be relevant to that, but is it - what's
the relevance to the question of the-----
APPLICANT: The-----
BENCH: -----the reasonableness of the determination to seize
10
the dogs?
APPLICANT: Well, it's - it's because they agreed to ship them
and, according to Mr Stageman, they did attempt to ship them.
BENCH: Yes.
APPLICANT: But they couldn't have shipped them without me
identifying they were the correct dogs-----
20
BENCH: Yes.
APPLICANT: -----obviously because the customers' dogs-----
BENCH: Yes.
APPLICANT: -----they want certain dogs to specifications.
BENCH: Mmm.
30
APPLICANT: They've paid a lot of money for them.
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: And it was - the numerous requests I had, my
lawyers did on my behalf, for me to attend and microchip and
identify the dogs-----
BENCH: Mmm.
40
APPLICANT: -----so the AQIS vet could microchip them, and
they will be the ones that will go to the correct owners-----
BENCH: Right.
APPLICANT: -----because they're other people's dogs as well.
BENCH: I understand that, but how does that - I'm just
struggling to see what the relevance of that is in so far as
the decision to seize on the 9th is.
50
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T16/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: They took everything. The - the decision to seize
1
was - according to me, it's because they were prepared to
steal my dogs. According to them, it's because they were all
neglected. Now those dogs were picked up from the breeders
within - within five days of seizure and they were in perfect
condition because they've had vet checks. They've had
worming, everything was done for them. There was nothing
wrong with those dogs.
BENCH: Are you trying to say that if they had have been
10
inspected by a vet-----
APPLICANT: Oh, yes, everything had been.
BENCH: -----that would - that would have been established.
Is that what - is that what you say the relevance is?
APPLICANT: Yes, but the relevance also-----
BENCH: Don't - don't agree with me, just-----
20
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: -----think I'm putting words in your mouth, but is
that what you're - is that what you're focussing on?
APPLICANT: Yes, there was no reason to seize those dogs. And
they - I wasn't allowed to identify them so therefore they
couldn't go. You just can't give somebody 12 dogs and say,
"Here take them." Because by the time it landed where they
30
were supposed to be it might not be the right dogs and that
was the problem.
WITNESS: Well all conversation between your lawyers at the
time were done through Inspector Towers-Hammond.
APPLICANT: That's right. Yes, so you were not aware of what
was happening except for the facts?-- Well I made arrangements
with the shelter and everything and they did take them down.
They had to have a - a final-----
40
They had to have two final checks?-- Yeah, two final checks
before they-----
Dipping and worming?-- -----before they went-----
Yes?-- -----to the transport.
And it was - the arrangement was they must be conditional to
identification by me, because those - those
50
puppies-----?-- Three of them had - I think we only had that
Karen, that dog transporter who was going to help out with
that as well.
Well the point is, you see, nobody saw fit to talk to me about
it and whatever I tried - arrangements I made through my
lawyers for identification of those dogs were just ignored
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T16/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
so-----?-- Well I'm sorry but I - I wasn't aware of that and I
1
didn't have anything to do with that.
Okay, thank you. Now so they took it upon themselves to try
to shift those dogs which they could not without liaising with
you or with me to identify correctly. So okay, now would you
agree that those dogs were in good healthy condition; those
puppies?-- They - they looked in pretty good condition. I did
find out later on that they did have a bit of a stomach bug.
10
Wouldn't you say - would you agree with me if I say that most
of the dogs that ended up with RSPCA get stomach bugs?-- Not
necessarily.
Do you check up on everything you - you take to the
shelter?-- Most times I do, if I've seized them and I - to
look at the animals well-being-----
How many of them?-- -----to see how the animal's going.
20
Say out of 10 dogs, how many of them come down with stomach
bugs, especially the young ones?-- Young ones are very prone
to - to stomach bugs, depending on where they are. When they
come into another area, some medication can make them a bit
crook with the shock to their system but most times we don't
have much dramas with animals coming in.
What medication are you talking about?-- Well every animal
that comes in gets wormed. They get vaccinated.
30
It shouldn't make them sick?-- Pardon?
Worming should not make them sick?-- Sorry?
Worming should not make them sick?-- No, I know that.
I'm sure any vet will tell you that?-- Well I'm not a
veterinarian.
Yes?-- But some dogs do come in and wherever they do get sick
40
it's a bug that they've had before they've come in.
How can it be a bug? Direct contact is immediate?-- Well I
call it a bug, it could be a stomach-----
Okay?-- -----stomach wog, or it could be anything.
Right, okay. Now maggots; maggots. I believe you found
maggots on my dogs?-- I did on Neddy.
50
One dog?-- The dog they call Ned.
What colour was he? His name wasn't Ned he had a proper name,
which nobody would accept?-- Well RSPCA any dogs that come
into the shelters the staff give them names.
I think that's very rude, especially when they have names and
I was - they were not interested in the proper names. Now
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T16/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
those dogs were reared with a name, an identity, and they took
1
it away from them. But other than that, let's go onto
Ned?-- Okay.
What colour was he? What sort of a dog was he?-- Well
okay-----
BENCH: One question at a time, Mrs Robertson.
APPLICANT: Yes.
10
BENCH: What sort?
APPLICANT: Yeah, what sort of a dog?-- He was poodle, a
standard red poodle.
A standard poodle colour?-- Like a chocolate.
Yeah, he's a brown. Okay?-- Yeah.
20
He's a brown coloured standard. Now where did he come from,
which part of the kennel, from my kennel did he come from, can
you remember?-- I'm not too sure, no. I think he - I think he
came from down the back.
So that dog would be called Jack at home. That's his
name?-- Okay.
Jack-in-the-box, and he's eight years old.
30
MS MELLIFONT: Might that be a convenient time, your Honour?
BENCH: I think it might be a convenient time. We'll come
back at 2.15.
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.
THE COURT ADJOURNED
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
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27082008 D.7 T17/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
THE COURT RESUMED
1
BENCH: I understand we're going to have an adjournment at
3.30 to allow technical people to come along and try and marry
up these computers?
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour. Can I start with a
confession? We've found the envelope for Exhibit 25. I'll
10
hand that up.
BENCH: I think I've been correct once about things being
missing.
MS MELLIFONT: I think I mistook the other envelope for the CD
which was delivered to me during a conference. So I apologise
for that.
BENCH: That's quite all right. Mrs Robertson, I think you
20
were asking Mr Stageman some questions about Ned, or Jack.
APPLICANT: Yes, maggots was the subject.
LAWRENCE STAGEMAN, CONTINUING:
30
CROSS-EXAMINATION:
APPLICANT: Mr Stageman, can you - can you recall Jack, I
think the last we spoke he was from the end kennels, the ones
at the end of the acreage?-- I think he was from there, I'm
not too sure.
Yeah, I think he was too, because he was the only way that was
40
quite badly matted. Do you recollect the conversation we had
when you phoned me regarding the photos and you laughed and
said to me that there was a dog that had maggots. And I said
to you he must have sat on it, and - and you laughed and what
else did we talk about, can you remember?-- I don't think I
laughed. I said - I remember the conversation. I said that
there was a couple of dogs found with maggots. One had
maggots in the ears and Jack had - I got called down and when
they cut - lifted part of the armadillo plating or all the
knotted hair up a bit, I noticed there was flies and there was
50
maggots around the back end of him.
On the back end of him, yes. And what else was there?-- Very
red skin.
Which part of him? Which part of his body?-- Around near his
anus and his testicles.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T17/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Mmm-hmm. Red skin?-- It was red skin, it'd been severely
1
irritated.
And was he clipped in any part or just as you saw him? Did
any clip - take some wool off him-----?-- They-----
-----or was he just-----?-- Well they had to clip a bit of it
off so it came up and you - which exposed the maggots.
Mmm?-- And I took some-----
10
Which part of the body exposed the maggots on which part?-- It
was under the - the matted hair.
Yes?-- Just around over his back end.
Over the - above where the tail is?-- No, just round near the
anus area and just up a little bit high-----
On his thighs?-- -----and down under - under his testicles.
20
On his thighs, the back of his thighs?-- On the back of his
thighs, yeah.
Yes. Now there's some pictures here and - and there were
maggots there you saw?-- There was maggots and I took some - a
still photo of it and I also took a couple of minute video on
my camera-----.
Mmm-hmm?-- -----of the maggots.
30
Now, the other thing to - when - what date was it? What day?
The 9th was the day they took - you took the dogs. They were
taken from my premises 9 of January?-- 9th of January we took
the dogs.
Mmm. You left at about 4.40, 4.30 - 4.40?-- Yeah, about 4.40.
It was getting pretty late.
Mmm-hmm. So when did you see Jack with the maggots, the next
40
day or-----?-- I think I saw him the next day or the day
after, I'm not too sure.
Can you try and sort of-----?-- They were down the back being
clipped. There was quite a few dogs down there.
So it was actually the 12th?-- I'm not too sure Mrs Robertson.
It was either the - it was either the - I don't think it was
the 10th. I think it was either the 11th - I'm not too sure I
can't. It should be - should be on-----
50
Do you remember-----?-- -----on my camera, it should say what
the date was.
So - so these photos, Exhibit 20, is it?
MS MELLIFONT: No, that's - the video is 20. These would be
19.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T17/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
APPLICANT: Exhibit 19, there are some photos with dogs. Is
that Ned or the brown standard?-- It would have been the next
day, 'cause it was on the 10th.
Can I show him some photos, your Honour?
BENCH: Yes, certainly. Well do you want me to provide him
with the actual Court-----
10
APPLICANT: Yes, please.
BENCH: It's Exhibit 18?
MS MELLIFONT: The witness actually - the witness actually has
Exhibit 19.
BENCH: Oh, I see.
MS MELLIFONT: He's got a folder with all the photographs
20
there, it's Exhibit 19.
BENCH: Of Exhibit 19, sorry.
APPLICANT: Right, you got the photos?-- Yeah.
Okay. Photo number one, what part of the dog is
that?-- That's probably just below his tail line.
Where's his tail?-- Probably out of the picture.
30
Between the legs or underneath, did you lift the leg up or
what? It makes - it's just a mess?-- Well I lifted the -
lifted the tail up a bit and-----
From which angle?-- I was right-----
You've got the tail up-----?-- -----behind him.
Sorry?-- I was right behind him.
40
Right behind him, so his tail is lifted up?-- Lifted the tail
up and saw-----
It's very hard to-----?-- -----saw the maggots. The maggots
were coming out.
From where?-- From around all that, all the moist area.
Which moist area?-- That's all moist in - and with faeces.
50
Moist with faeces?-- Well that's - that's all faeces knotted
into the hair and it was all wet and the maggots were coming
around from underneath there. They're all everywhere around
there.
You didn't put anything on the coat as-----?-- No, I didn't.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T17/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
-----shampoo or-----?-- No.
1
-----detergent? Nothing, and it was wet?-- No, I just called
- I got called down to the dog because they sighted them and
that's what I saw from when I went down there.
Mmm, okay. Now where are the maggots, can you point them
out?-- This one's not a very good picture because it's all
blurry. But picture number two is more precise.
10
Mmm, number two; right?-- That's a maggot there.
Can you point out-----?-- That's a maggot there.
BENCH: Can you just-----
WITNESS: There's more little ones up here, a maggot there.
MS MELLIFONT: Mr Stageman, excuse me, Mr Stageman?-- Sorry.
20
We need to be able to see what you're pointing to?-- I'm
sorry.
And we also need you to assist by - for the record identifying
where in that photograph you're pointing to. So the centre,
the right, the bottom, the left?-- Oh okay. Pointing just
below the anus is a - a large maggot there.
APPLICANT: So that the red - the pink part is his anus, is
that?-- I think it's - no, sorry, I had it upside down.
30
They're his testicles. That's his anus up underneath there.
There's maggots there, directly up under the tail. There's a
couple of young ones down here-----
Could you slow down, please?-- -----on his testicles.
Could you slow down?-- Sorry.
His testicles are the red ones on top?-- They're his - red,
yeah, it's up-----
40
Yes?-- I had it upside down.
Yeah, where are the maggots? The maggots were-----?-- There's
a maggot there. There's maggots up here.
Where's that part?-- That's-----
Towards his - where's his body?-- His anus is - his anus is
just there, that's where the maggot is.
50
That's the anus?-- That would be his tail, I'd say.
So it's near his anus?-- That - all that was knotted
underneath there, Mrs Robertson. Everything here was just
covered.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-69
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T17/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
With maggots?-- Well with the faeces coated to the hair there
1
was maggots all over the place.
Mmm, all over there. Okay. How did it get wet?-- Well if you
look at that that's dry. That's all faeces and urine, ah
sorry, faeces.
That is a normal sized dog. Now his - his groin and his thigh
and legs are not where his ankles are, it's up top?-- No,
they're his testicles there.
10
Yes?-- All this back end and all underneath when they cut all
that matt up there was maggots all up underneath there as
well.
Okay. Did you have any photo of the dog with the hair cut off
and showing all the maggots?-- I had a video of it.
Yes, we'll see the video in a minute. Look at these photos
first. Now, what is - the other one is about the same - more
20
or less the same location, I guess?
BENCH: Which photo?
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-70
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: Photo number 3. You're looking at photo 3 now,
1
isn't it?-- Two.
Two, okay. Is that one or two or three?-- That's three.
Three, all right. We're looking at three. Now, what are we
looking at - three - where are the maggots?-- There's a maggot
there.
Which part of he is that?-- That's on the - that's his tail,
10
that's on the left-hand side-----
Mmm?-- -----just around past his anus.
Is that your hand on the right-hand side of the
photo?-- Sorry, that's my-----
On the left-hand side?-- On the left-hand side?
Is that your hand there?-- That's a maggot there. No, that's
20
not my hand.
Sorry?-- That's not my hand.
Whose hand is it?-- That's one of the vet nurses.
The vet nurse's hand?-- Yes.
Why has it got pink on it, all that pink stain on her
hand?-- That's not pink stain, that looks like it's an
30
abrasion.
That looks like part of the hand, a person's hand, that's
it?-- Yeah, that red mark there would be either a scrape or a
scratch.
On the person's hand?-- On the finger, yeah.
So that's not very hygienic, isn't it? Touching a dirty dog
like that with a hand that has already broken skin?-- Well I
40
don't know what the vet nurses and that do.
I wouldn't think that they would do that? Okay, the next
photo, photo number 4?-- That's the photo of the dog in the
desex clinic.
That's the photo of the dog in the desex - which dog?-- That's
your dog, the one that-----
I know, which dog?-- -----on the previous photos.
50
You took 104 dogs, which dog?-- Ned.
Ned? At the clinic getting desexed?-- No, no, no he's not
getting - he was taken to the desexing clinic which is also an
operating theatre-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-71
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Yes?-- -----to have all this clipped up and have all these
1
maggots and get everything all cleaned up so it's nice and
clean.
So, he was getting cleaned up? At what stage was he when this
photo was taken, being cleaned up? There's still a lot of
hair everywhere. Part of his body has been clipped close off
and it's wet?-- It's all been clipped close off around where
the infected area is.
10
Hmm, where are the wounds?-- You can see all the wounds. This
is all through - through irritation, through the maggots and
through the build-up of faeces that was in that skin, in that
hair.
So all these are - where the pink is, is wounds, you
reckon?-- That's all irritation from the maggots.
Irritation from the maggots?-- Yeah.
20
What does that mean? You mean to say that
maggots-----?-- Maggots will eat the dead tissue.
Eat the dead tissue?-- Yeah, maggots don't eat live tissue.
They eat dead tissue. But you must appreciate too, 'cause
that dog had very matted and - much the same as a fly blown
sheep.
Hmm, you think it's much the same as a fly blown sheep?-- Much
the same as a fly blown sheep - fly blown sheep where the
30
sheep, as you know, when they're fly blown, all the back end
with the build-up of the dags of faeces on the back and the
maggots get in there.
Hmm, so the-----?-- On the video footage you'll see that the
flies kept going backwards and forwards to the dog.
Which flies? Where are the flies?-- Well, they're not here
'cause it's in the vet's surgery. But on the video you'll see
that there's flies landing on it.
40
Can we see the video with the maggots, Exhibit 20? Thanks,
Andrew?
EXHIBIT 20 PLAYED
50
WITNESS: That was when he was taken down into the shed to be
clipped-----
Hmm?-- -----and you can see all the flies hovering around the
back end of him.
Let's have a look at the flies, can you stop it when you
see?-- Could you wind go back from the start, please?
XXN: APPLICANT
7-72
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
EXHIBIT 20 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
1
APPLICANT: Can we go back, sorry? When you see the flies,
please?
EXHIBIT 20 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
10
APPLICANT: There's quite a few of them, big flies?-- Hmm.
Hmm. Okay, let's keep going.
EXHIBIT 20 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
20
APPLICANT: What's that, please?-- That's around his rump,
above the tail and the flies have been hovering around, the
flies have been getting in out of that.
When was this taken - on the 10th?-- That was taken on the
10th.
30
Uh-huh. At what stage - was he wet, ready for clipping or
getting shampooed or whatever, when those photos were
taken?-- He went into the clipping room to get ready to get
some of this stuff all taken off and that's when they started
to see the flies and then the maggots come to light.
And the flies came out of the maggots from the wool?-- No, the
flies are the ones that are laying the maggot eggs into the
dog.
40
The flies were laying the eggs onto his coat. So, in other
words-----?-- It's much the same as a fly blown sheep. The
flies will get into the dags, lay their eggs and then the eggs
hatch into maggots.
Hmm. So in other words, it's the RSPCA flies that's laying
eggs on my dog?-- No. No, I think that-----
Well, that's what it is, that's what you said?-- Well, I said,
yeah, the flies are laying eggs but the flies don't-----
50
The RSPCA premises have got lots of flies because on my
property-----?-- Well, I'm not an expert but I can tell you,
some of those maggots are over four or five days old, even
longer.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-73
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
I'm not an expert either, but you haven't got a definite date
1
as to when the photos were taken?-- Well, RSPCA is not the
only-----
It could have been a week or five days?-- -----place where
flies hang around. You got flies at your place too.
There were no flies at my place. If you go through all your
videos, if you can pick up a fly - because I did that, I
couldn't pick up any fly from the videos you supplied me.
There was no flies on my property because we generally just
10
don't get flies, very few flies.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, keep it to questions, not statements,
please.
APPLICANT: Oh, okay. Would you agree that that fly is an
RSPCA fly?-- It's on RSPCA's-----
And he's a big one?-- -----property but I don't think it
belongs to RSPCA?
20
And he's a big one, he's not a newly hatched fly, he's a
mature fly, look at the size of him?-- Only mature flies lay
eggs, lay the maggots and blow flies.
Now, does it - where are the faeces, Larry, where are the
faeces in the photo - on that dog, where the fly is? Which
part of the dog, if you can-----?-- That's on top of the dog.
Above the tail?-- That's above the tail, this photograph.
30
Hmm?-- If you go on further with the video, you'll see all the
clumps of faeces attached to the bottom under the tail.
All right. This is on top, let's have a look at this and
we'll go on to the next, after, okay? Now how did faeces get
on the top of the tail, I would think-----?-- I didn't say it
was on the top of the tail.
Hmm, how could it?-- I didn't say there's faeces on top of the
40
tail.
But you just said, it was on top of the tail where the flies
and the-----?-- I said, it's on top of the tail, the flies are
entering from the tail going down up underneath. The
flies-----
Going down, underneath?-- The flies don't target, they just
get on there, mull around till they can find a spot to lay
their eggs.
50
Hmm. So if this dog was kept for a couple of days and anyway,
your flies-----?-- Well, if you want to look at that photo -
if you see down on the-----
Which photo?-- This one here on the thing - directly below the
fly-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-74
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Hmm?-- -----that - that's like a brownish lump there, that's
1
faeces.
Which brownish lump? Not on your-----?-- Down under to the
bottom of the screen-----
Yes?-- -----that's like a greenish brownish colour there,
that's a lump of faeces.
I think it looks like shampoo and dirt of some description.
10
It could be - it could be anything because-----?--
BENCH: Well, for the purpose of the record, you're indicating
in the middle of the image?-- Yeah.
You say that's a fly?-- That's a fly, yes.
And is it directly below of where you say the fly is that you
say you can see faeces?-- I think it's - yeah, I'd say it's a
lump of faeces.
20
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-75
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Towards the bottom of that image?-- Sorry?
1
Towards the bottom?-- Towards the bottom, yes.
Right.
APPLICANT: And where is this anus in location to that?-- That
was when I filmed it down the back.
His anus, where he does his toilet, where the faeces come out,
10
in that picture, can you identify?-- It's just below the tail,
because all that fold that - fold of flesh up there, that's
the rump at the - at the top of the tail.
I draw your attention to picture number 4?-- That - that was
number - the whole file, that was - oh, yeah.
Number 4?-- Yeah.
BENCH: That's picture of the dog lying on the-----?-- In the
20
- in the veterinary-----
-----on the table?-- -----in the desex-----
Mmm.
APPLICANT: With his anus exposed, which is that part? You
agree or what - is this the anus?--
BENCH: You've got that upside down, Mrs Robertson, from -
30
yes.
APPLICANT: Oh well, this one?-- That's the anus up here.
Mmm?-- That's the dog's testicles.
Okay. Now, in relation to that picture, this after he's been
clipped, 4, I guess?-- He - well, all the knotted hair and the
- and the faeces have been clipped off the back end so they
can get rid of all the maggots.
40
Mmm?-- If you look at that photograph on the wall-----
Mmm?-- -----that would be up here above the tail.
Above the tail?-- Above the tail and that fly would be just at
that fold of the tail going down, just in there.
On the fold of the tail where?-- Well, that there-----
50
Yes?-- -----up on top of that is his rump which is just up
where those folds - see the folds of flesh up the top, where
it folds down the back?
Too much wool. That's all wool, all clumps of wool?-- Well,
that looks like a fold of flesh to me and where the fly is
directly-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-76
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
He's got to be a fat dog to have that thick folds of
1
flesh?-- Pardon?
He's got to be a really fat dog to have that thick rolls of
fat on him?-- Well, that's what it looks like to me and where
that fly is - is on its tail above it. If you see the video
from the time - if you kept going with the video where it pans
back.
Looking at this, right, he doesn't look like he has got folds
10
on him to come to that size?-- Because his tail's been picked
up.
Doesn't he look like this? This is a clump of hair?-- That's
a clump of hair there, yes.
That's right. Mmm. Now, those folds, as you call
it-----?-- All right-----
-----on the video-----?-- -----yeah, I'll yield, it could be a
20
clump of matted hair.
It's more likely to be hair?-- Okay.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, can I just interrupt. Where are you
going with this? As I understand, Inspector Stageman's
evidence is that this is images - this is a video of Jack.
APPLICANT: Yes.
30
BENCH: Which has - which is infested maggots - flyblown, I
think.
APPLICANT: So he - so he claims.
BENCH: That's perhaps a poor summary of his evidence.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Where are we going as to whether or not we've got-----
40
APPLICANT: Well-----
BENCH: -----a photo of his anus or what we've got a photo of?
Where is that going?
APPLICANT: Your Honour, the whole point is maggots will live
on fresh blood, meat. They do not live on dead tissues.
They-----
50
BENCH: I think that's what the inspector has said, that the
live - on live-----
APPLICANT: He said it the other way around, they only live on
dead tissues.
BENCH: No, I think his evidence is live - live tissue?-- No,
I said-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-77
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
You said, "dead"?-- Yeah. Maggots-----
I'm sorry, my apology?-- -----will only live in dead - dead
tissue.
My apology?-- And when they're eating the dead tissue, they
will eat a bit of the live stuff and that's why you get a lot
of irritation.
10
Well, I've misunderstood what you've said. Yes, so - sorry,
Mrs Robertson, where are you - where are you going?
APPLICANT: I've got some photos of - from the Net I download
of fly strikes.
BENCH: Yes, but where is - where is this going?
APPLICANT: Well, the point is I believe that those maggots
were planted.
20
BENCH: Right.
APPLICANT: They didn't come out of the dog.
BENCH: Okay.
APPLICANT: Because he has got no broken wounds. He's got
lacerations which are - appear to be more clipper burns.
30
BENCH: Right.
APPLICANT: I mean, maggots cannot hatch and breed there.
BENCH: Okay.
APPLICANT: They've got to he put on and the size of the
maggots are all different, you know. When you get a fly
strike - when I went on the Net and looked for them, they are
about the same size when they strike. The eggs are laid and
40
they hatch simultaneously-----
BENCH: Simultaneously, yes.
APPLICANT: Sorry. About the same time, so they are about the
same size, like these.
BENCH: Of course you have to take into account there may be
strikes on - at different times.
50
APPLICANT: Yeah. Yes.
BENCH: And then you'll have different maggots - sizes.
APPLICANT: And they literally hatch within hours.
BENCH: Okay.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-78
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: Less than 12 - 24 hours.
1
BENCH: So are you putting to the inspector that the maggots
were - or the fly was - sorry, what was your phrase, that
the-----
APPLICANT: Planted the maggots.
BENCH: Planted.
10
APPLICANT: Yes, the maggots were planted because he didn't
have-----
BENCH: All right. Well, is that where - is that where you
want to go with the inspector?
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Right. Can we go there?
20
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Because I don't think it's relevant or important that
I talk - that I found out where the anus or whatever else is
on these photos.
APPLICANT: And I've got some photos here which shows fly
strike. I downloaded it from the Net - like what they look
like. This is in an anus, a sheep anus, I think.
30
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: Similar to a poodle wool - pure wool and that is
another fly strike, if I could - and none of them exhibits the
same patterns. This is another fly strike. I only did them -
the very obvious and easy to view ones, you know, where you
can get a good picture of it. We blew it up and that was it.
Now, none of these - they look they're sprinkled on or dabbed
on and mostly when they show the maggots, it's wet, so it look
like to me that at some point in time they've tried to - to
40
bath the dog or something and there's been wet contact.
BENCH: Okay. Put that - put all that-----
MS MELLIFONT: I'm sorry, can I just interrupt, to observe that
one of the respondent's witnesses is Victoria Lomax. She is
the vet who clipped this dog.
BENCH: Mmm.
50
MS MELLIFONT: All of these things can be put to her so far as
is relevant. This witness is not a vet. There's - I presume,
no established expertise in the particular area of - in
respect of the particular area covered by the photographs
downloaded on the Net by Mrs Robertson. If the allegation is
that the maggots have been planted, then perhaps, as your
Honour has indicated, we should get to that.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-79
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: Put it - put whatever you want about, you know-----
1
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: -----the planting - the impropriety on - if you want
to put that to this officer, but in - then the questions about
what they looked like and when they were - may have been there
will be questions for the vet who may have some expertise on
whatever the field of maggots is. It's a specialised-----
10
APPLICANT: Maggots, I think, is commonsense. There's very
little to know about them, except they feed on live - on
protein-----
BENCH: No, that's a very, very defined scientific field. It
goes towards - able to determining how long people have been
dead and all sorts of things.
APPLICANT: Yes. See, I think it's also on the - more
importantly, I think when they determine the time of death, I
20
think it's got to do-----
BENCH: All of those things.
APPLICANT: Yeah.
BENCH: All right. Well, let - put that to the inspector.
APPLICANT: Did you see any open wounds on Jack?-- No.
30
No open wounds? So how do you think the maggots got on to him
if there was - assuming that maggots will fester with wounds -
you know, they've got to live?-- Well, before we go any
further than that, can we just show that video a little bit
further, please, your Honour, because when you have an animal
with a build-up of faeces on the back, that - the skin can't
breathe. It is a home for maggots where a fly will fly - lay
its eggs and the maggots will work their way in down to that
and the way it depicts on this photo, there's only a little
bit of faeces down the back - down the bottom of the screen,
40
where the full video will show the full extent of the build-up
of faeces on the back of the dog.
But again, you said, "at the back of the dog" - that there
were faeces - you first noticed the maggots from the flies on
the top of his tail on the back. Now, if that's the case, how
could faeces be on the top of the tail above that? He
couldn't - it goes - gravity-----?-- Because you stopped the
video-----
50
Yes?-- -----as I'm zooming in on the animal with the fly
flying around it.
Mmm?-- You're not letting the video do it's full length so you
can see-----
All right?-- -----exactly what I videoed.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-80
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T19/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Okay. What we do is if - start again, please, Andrew, and
1
then you tell when to stop and then we'll stop immediately and
have a look.
TAPE PLAYED
10
WITNESS: You can see in that video then the maggots are going
into the folds of the matted up hair, so is the whole back of
the dog which is below its anus where it's all caked in faeces
around the matted hair. That's a breeding ground for maggots.
20
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-81
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T20/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: Mr Stageman, I believe there's more than one.
1
It's - these are additions of the photo that come out of - at
different times and put together. It doesn't appear to be one
continuous shot. I mean, I find it very hard to relate this
piece of photo to what we saw in the earlier couple of - one
or two minutes ago?-- Yeah, I took various photos stopped.
Why did you?-- Because I only had a little video camera on my
- on my still camera and I didn't want to run it all out, so I
just stopped and took certain parts of the dog as it was
10
moving and different sections of the dog. That's why there's
so many of the little ones.
Can you take the little video camera photo and enlarge it to
there? I - I don't think it's logical. I don't know enough
about photos, but to my way of thinking if it took a little
video camera photo the negative or whatever that takes it,
digital or whatever the image-----?-- Yeah.
-----would be tiny and to enlarge it to that, which is quite -
20
it's - it's there's more detail.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, this - don't take this as being any
judicial notice-----
APPLICANT: I know.
BENCH: -----but I have children who have one of those
cameras.
30
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: And they can video things for a short period of time
and then plug it into the TV and play it back on the TV.
APPLICANT: And is it as clear as that?
BENCH: As clear as that.
APPLICANT: Oh, all right.
40
BENCH: You know, the - the digital cameras, the flick it-----
APPLICANT: I don't know.
BENCH: -----I don't either, but they do.
APPLICANT: Yeah.
BENCH: So perhaps that explains.
50
APPLICANT: I believe you, but more importantly the - once
again, the folds as you call it is matted fur. Now maggots
cannot live - it's got to be protein meat. You know, meat or
something that's rich and wet; right. They cannot live on dry
fur. But how does - if that is above the tail, his anus is
below the tail. Now how does he get faeces above the tail?
XXN: APPLICANT
7-82
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T20/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Unless he's been jammed in spot?-- I didn't say there was
1
faeces above the tail. You've got all knotted hair there.
But the flies are going there?-- But you've got all knotted
hair there. The maggots are on there. You can see maggots up
there as well.
Mmm?-- Where the fly was before.
Mmm?-- They don't stay in one spot. A fly can lay on the
10
moist part and transport the eggs and maggots will hatch.
Mmm?-- But as I said, I'm not a rocket scientist. I know what
a maggot is and I know where the maggot and the different
sizes of them.
All right?-- And it's through time.
Let's go back to the beginning, and then we'll stop before
that Andrew, please.
20
TAPE PLAYED
APPLICANT: Now, look at that. Which part of the tail is the
maggots - I mean, as shown there, obviously it's the last
bit-----?-- All around the back end of the dog, Mrs Robertson.
30
The colour's different?-- Of course it's different because
it's all knotted and it's all - all around the - down the legs
area it just-----
It doesn't look grey. Your camera photos distinctly show
grey. It looks like there's been something put on it, like
moisture or something?-- No.
You see that doesn't look - that looks pretty dry to me;
40
doesn't it?-- On the back?
Mmm?-- Where that dark patch is?
Well the dark patch is the colour. He's a brown colour. The
yellow patch, or the light colour patch is the sun - the hair
on top that's been bleached by the sun?-- That matt on the top
is like a big shell. It's just hard thick fur.
It's not a big shell. It's the matted - when the rain came,
50
the dust and everything it sort of - that is a matt; okay.
I'm not disputing with you that the dog is not matted. That
is a mat; right. The rest of it is hair that is loose and it
has parted and it's dry. Does it look wet to you,
please?-- On the top it doesn't, no.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-83
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T20/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
No. Where that brown is, where his tail is. Even to the back
1
of his legs, the hocks?-- It's too knotted and - and too
glagged up to know any different.
Sorry, it doesn't matter whether it's - it's clumped up and
matted or not, all you've got to do is look at it and see
whether it's wet, you think, or dry. His hocks is where -
just above his toes, the back part, next to the ground. You
can see the ground, his legs-----?-- Yeah.
10
-----on the right-hand side, and then the tail. The darkest
brown bit is the back of the tail?-- Well it's not wet. It's
not wet 'cause the dog hasn't had a wash.
BENCH: Look, I'm sorry - I'm sorry to interrupt but we've
been down this road where the inspector took the video. If
you're going to suggest to him, Mrs Robertson, that he planted
the - planted the fly, the blowfly, please do so. There will
be, as Ms Mellifont, has indicated, vets who'll be able to
give evidence about - from their professional viewpoint what
20
they did and saw.
APPLICANT: I don't think he planted the fly, but I think the
maggots were planted on this pictures because there were no
open wounds.
BENCH: All right. Well ask him whether he did that.
APPLICANT: Mmm.
30
BENCH: Or do you want me to ask him for you?
APPLICANT: No, I want to ask him whether - could someone have
planted the maggots. Not necessarily you or anybody, if it
was wet?-- No, I don't think anyone would - would be that
callous.
You don't think so; okay. All right. What else do we want to
see in that photo - in that video? And there was definitely
no wounds on Jack?-- I didn't notice any wounds, no. Only the
40
red - the red irritation.
What caused the red irritation do you think?-- Well if he -
once again, the vet can explain that better than what I can.
MS MELLIFONT: And perhaps it's better that the vet does.
APPLICANT: Okay.
MS MELLIFONT: Mrs Robertson is calling for an opinion as - in
50
a sense - in a sense for medical expertise.
APPLICANT: Who is the vet? The name of the vet, who?-- Vicki
Lomax.
Vicki Lomax, okay. Which other vets attended to the dogs that
you know of, that you're aware of?-- This dog or most of the
dogs?
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T20/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
Well all the dogs?-- Vicki Lomax, Anne Chester and probably a
couple of the other vets.
What about Anne Colvill?-- Anne?
Anne Colvill?-- We don't have an Anne Colvill. Anne Covill?
Yes?-- I don't know whether Anne was or not.
10
Okay. Felting of the dogs, you know, the matting or felting,
all the thick layers, do you think it's a problem for the
poodles? Felting, that means all this matting, do you think
it's a major problem?-- I think it is, 'cause it's not letting
the skin breathe.
I beg your pardon?-- It's not letting the skin breathe.
The - were you aware that the poodle is one of the few breeds
that's got pure wool coat?-- I'm aware of that.
20
And the wool actually does breathe and that the dogs are not
felted all the time, but in - in those conditions that we had,
with the dry drought and then the rain and the dust, with the
drought came the dust and all that, and when the rain came
wouldn't it be normal for - for wool, pure wool, to matt,
because the dogs are bouncing around all the time and the hair
rubs?-- Well not to that degree and to the degree of some of
the other poodles.
30
It does matt to that degree in a couple of days. I'll show
you some photos of some . It's in the affidavit.
MS MELLIFONT: Are you using the affidavit?
APPLICANT: Yes, we're looking for photos.
BENCH: Which photos are you looking for, Mrs Robertson?
APPLICANT: Yes, we'll find it now. It's got to be here, it
40
can't be too far. I'm sorry about this.
BENCH: No, no, that's all right. I just wanted to assist if
I could, that was all.
APPLICANT: Here it is.
BENCH: Is that "GR2". Your affidavit sworn-----
APPLICANT: GR.
50
BENCH: -----it's an 11 page affidavit sworn on the 21st of
July, is that that photo?
APPLICANT: I thought it would be an earlier one. Can I-----
MS MELLIFONT: If you hold up the affidavit we'll all look for
it, to show us what it is.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T21/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: Can I see - is that it?
1
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: That one there?
APPLICANT: Oh yeah, that - yes.
BENCH: That's GR2.
10
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: GR200, by the look of it.
APPLICANT: Can I just show this photo, your Honour, it'll
save a bit of time.
BENCH: I'll give him the actual-----
APPLICANT: It's a blown-up one.
20
BENCH: No, you can give him the blown-up one.
APPLICANT: Is he matted?-- Very untidy.
Have a good look, please?-- I wouldn't call it exactly matted
to the point some of the dogs were.
Yeah, but is he matted or not?-- That is a little bit matted,
yes.
30
A bit matted? Do you think it'd be easy to sort of - so you
say he's matted, that dog in the photo you're looking at, this
one?-- Well, he's over grown, he wouldn't be as really badly
matted from what I could see.
You think there's something wrong with him being like that,
looking like that?-- Well, he needs a clip.
Why would he need a clip, do you think?-- To make it a bit
40
more freer for him.
Why should he be free? He looks happy and free to me?-- Well,
I'm not a poodle expert, Mrs Robertson.
Do you know that in the wild, they're kept woollier than this?
Not wild, in the working condition. If he was a working dog,
out in the fields. He's a retriever. He's a hunting dog, you
saw hunting?-- No.
50
Would you still - do you think-----?-- So, out in the wild
they'd have big dreadlocks of hair hanging off them?
Some of them, yes. If they're working, like on the farm,
property or something like that.
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, I'm sorry to object again. But it
appears that we're going down a track of irrelevance. This
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T21/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
witness, insofar as what is relevant from this witness - it
1
was his belief, at the time of the seizure and at the time of
him making - sorry, at the time of his shift at the seizure,
that is, whether he was under the reasonable belief that these
animals would be at risk and also at the time of forfeiture.
Going down this track of general knowledge outside what he
knew at the time, simply is not relevant.
BENCH: That is so, Ms Mellifont. I think what Mrs
Robertson's trying to do is, by going to GR2, to say, here is
10
a photograph of the dog which is matted - does he or does he
not accept the dog looks matted, does it look comfortable? In
a - perhaps a long way around to looking at the question of
whether it was reasonable, in his belief at the time, to seize
the animals because of their condition. It's perhaps a long
road to that point but, Mrs Robertson, if we can focus on the
issues.
APPLICANT: Yes, I'll try. Yeah, I'll try, your Honour.
20
BENCH: I understand you've got so much information-----
APPLICANT: I'm not good at this.
BENCH: Pardon?
APPLICANT: I'm not good - I couldn't find a lawyer who'd do
it for me, so - they did and they wanted to certify me insane.
Anyway I better get and try do my best, okay. Would you say
that dog has been neglected, looking like that?-- No.
30
Why not? He's matted, he's wet, he's dirty looking, he's
felted?-- Well, the ground's clean. The dog just has a
different air about it.
What do you mean, a different air about it? Please
describe?-- The dog's got a different look about it.
Like what? You can't even see his face or his eyes?-- No, I
can't see his face and his eyes but looking at that dog, if I
40
saw that dog on a property, that wasn't being looked after, I
would've seized that one as well.
On the property and you would assume he was not looked after
but because-----?-- No, if I'd gone to a property with that
animal, I would've given a welfare direction to have the dog
clipped and to tidy up the dog a bit.
So, in your opinion as an RSPCA inspector, if you see a dog
looking like this, you would recommend that it gets at least a
50
welfare direction?-- I would have a look at the animal, if I
couldn't see any issue with the animal - but from what poodles
I've seen, they've always been clipped. They've always looked
neat and it's on an understanding that the poodles should be
clipped every six to eight weeks, is that correct or not?
XXN: APPLICANT
7-87
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T21/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
No, it's not correct. Some poodles are never clipped. You
1
can tidy up around the anus and the eyes to give it some, you
know, to help it along. Some dogs are just not clipped. What
they call teddy bear look and people like them looking feral.
Like, you know, normal, it's the breed. What I call feral,
it's the breed. The reason, like the photos in the newspaper
published by RSPCA-----
BENCH: I think we might be getting off the track again, Mrs
Robertson?
10
APPLICANT: No, this is talk about untidy poodles. They took
some of the poodles photos-----
BENCH: Hmm.
APPLICANT: -----from the RSPCA pound and two page advertise
is one of the affidavits and those dogs were certainly not
clean and tidy. They look like that. But they were a bit
shaved, you know perhaps, but they still look tacky, for want
20
of a better word, that's what you're trying to say. You know,
this one looks not like you would like them to look, showroom
condition.
BENCH: No.
APPLICANT: Yeah. I mean, these - so you would still give it
- the best you would do, is give it a welfare direction or
take with you, depending on examination?-- Well, if I saw
something like that, I'd give a welfare direction to have the
30
animal looked at to make sure it's got a clean bill of health.
Yep, okay. Now did you look at every dog before you took them
from my property to see whether they are worthy of a welfare
direction or clean bill of health? Did you when you came to
my property?-- Well, I did look at most of your dogs.
Sorry?-- I did look at probably, fairly well all the dogs.
Didn't have a real good-----
40
Which ones did you examine?-- -----look at them, but as I said
to you, I was going to give you an animal welfare direction
and take some of the dogs.
Yeah, the closest you've been to any of the dogs that I was
aware of, unless you - before the seizure order, was at least
about three, four metres away from the dog? Would you agree
or disagree?-- You can still do visuals on dogs and I was
prepared to give you that chance to do a few things.
50
But you didn't actually put hands on or closer than three
metres, at least, from-----?-- No.
No, okay. Yes and, Mr Stageman, if you flip over the page,
that was the dog that dived into the pool or a bath, which she
was not allowed to do and this is about one hour later. The
owner dried him off and that's what he looked like?-- Yeah,
that's all right.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T21/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Looks a different dog, doesn't it?-- Yeah.
1
Yeah. You see, that's the difference between poodles. You
see they look pretty woeful doesn't mean that they look
woeful, you know. It's a little bit more than that. There is
a major difference between wet and dry, okay. Lawrie, there's
a few points here I've got - I've made when we were listening
to the video, the noisy one - was it this one or the last one
- the same one, okay. It was the same. And I picked up -
these were the things I picked up. That I had said on that
10
noisy tape, the audio, we're talking about - and I want you to
sort of think about it and see whether you agree or not, okay?
The effects of the flash flooding, right now, I did mention to
you on the tape - I think was recorded by the tape that I did
say that the - that the silt and debris deposited by the flash
flooding - would you agree - do you agree that I mentioned
about the silt and the debris with the flooding that we had
from the kennels?-- You did mention about the flooding and the
debris and you did mention about your car being flooded.
20
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T22/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Yes. And I told you about the rain and the problems it
1
caused?-- Yeah.
Told you that the kennels were cleaned up every day
otherwise?-- Yeah-----
I meant normally?-- -----I remember you saying that.
That I hadn't been able to clean properly for two days because
of the continuous rain and flooding?-- Yeah, you did say that.
10
That I told you about Benji Kennels, 12 dogs to be shipped -
that they need AQIS attention in the next couple of days and
then later on within 10 days they had to be shipped out,
another treatment again?-- Yeah, you told me all about those
Benji dogs.
And I gave you the papers for Benji dogs to attend
to-----?-- You did.
20
I also told you that I'd been trying to reduce the dog numbers
and I've been advertising on the Net and I believe that it was
because of that that you came or something to that effect
anyway about trying to reduce the numbers because I had big
adds advertising retirement and selling the dogs for the cost
of desexing-----?-- Yeah, you did mention to me that you had
too many animals and you tried to give some away and I did
offer-----
Not give some away?-- -----that you could surrender some to -
30
the animals, just to help you out a bit - surrender them to
the RSPCA.
I didn't say give them away because I don't believe in giving
dogs away because they're high maintenance dogs?-- Mmm.
They've got to pay something for it, like the cost of
neutering it. You see, anyone who wants a dog from me, they
must pay for the cost of neutering because if they can't
afford to do that, they don't deserve a dog because that
40
dog-----
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, this is - sorry, this is evidence
from the Bar table. There's no question with it so far.
APPLICANT: Okay.
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
APPLICANT: Did I tell you that I love my dogs?-- That you
50
love your dogs?
Yes?-- Yes.
Did I tell you that I have wormed all the puppies up at the
house and all the dogs up at the house that I brought down,
except for the four dogs in the halfway house?-- I remember
you did say about the puppies being in the house.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T22/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
Yes, and the worming of all the dogs that morning?-- Worming?
I wormed all the dogs that came down to the house as well that
morning and there was only four dogs I didn't check or attend
to that day on the 9th of January and they were the ones in
the - the mid-kennels?-- Yeah, I recall you saying that you
had the puppies and the worms now, yeah.
Did I tell you the dogs were vaccinated?-- You did.
10
That all the dogs were fed except the four in the middle
kennels that morning?-- No, I don't remember that.
I put it to you that I did say that and there was food I
pointed out to you at the kennels-----?-- There was food-----
-----in the dogs' food bowls?-- -----in some of the kennels.
There was food in the puppies. There was food in those ones
down the aisle. I didn't see any food down - the ones in the
20
back kennel.
I think that is - if we look at the video, we will see some
food in some of them, but most of the back kennels, I also
told you, I had already shifted the dogs up to the house
because of the flooding and there was only six kennels of dogs
down at the end kennels and I was in the middle - I told you
that, did I not?-- Yeah, you did.
Yes. Did I also tell you that I was in the middle of trying
30
to clean those kennels? It was too hard and I was shifting
all the dogs down so that I could clear the place and clean it
properly and put them back. Did I tell you that?-- I vaguely
remember that.
And the dogs were fed also. Did I tell you also that the dogs
at the boarding block that was left were fed?-- Yeah, I did
pick up something on that on the tape and you did say in here
that you fed the dogs.
40
There's also food leftover in some of the bits that we could
see anyway. Did I tell you about Simba's infected ear? I
said, two or - two days before that I had found little tiny
maggots in his ear and I flushed it out and he needed
treatment?-- No, I didn't remember that.
Did I fax you a list of dogs that needed treatment? Like
Millie has had her - her ear was on the second course of
antibiotics and I gave her an injection of antibiotics as
prescribed by the vet to - so that she - because it took a
50
long time to heal? She'd already been healing and treated and
there was a - Simba, the dog in the halfway house that I had
found maggots that morning - no, the day before, because I
already did one lot of flush with the ears and that he need
it. I wrote it on a piece of paper and faxed to you either on
the 10th - I think got to be the 10th because on the 9th I was
distraught and I thought, "What I could do?" I also - did I
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T22/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
or did I not?-- That list - I gave that list to the shelter so
1
they knew what dogs needed what.
Yeah, there was about two or three lists?-- Yeah.
To whom did you give it to at the shelter?-- I think I gave it
to Nanda.
That's your kennel manager?-- Yeah.
10
When did Nanda - Nanda went away on holidays, did she?-- I
think she did, yes.
When did she come back?-- Not too sure.
Was she there the day the dogs were taken on the 9th of
January?-- Not too sure, I wasn't there, I was - wasn't at -
there the 9th of January.
The day you came to - to - the day of the raid, did you see
20
her down at the kennels-----?-- No.
-----when you went back? Who looked after the kennels when
she's away? She's the kennel manager?-- Have an assistant.
Who - what's the assistant's name?-- Katrina.
Katrina? You wouldn't know the surname?-- Bartlett.
Bartlett. And Millie's - treatment for Millie, would be on
30
those sheets of - so you didn't read it, but you handed it on?
Okay. Did you hand it on to Nanda Tien or to Christine?
Would you remember?-- I - I mentioned to the shelter manger
that, "There's dogs here that - that you sent a list that
needs treatment." She probably would have given it to the
vets because they don't-----
Who was the person you gave-----?-- -----the shelters don't
handle the medication or anything, it goes to the
veterinarians and then they put it on the dog's list.
40
Who did you hand it to?-- I don't know.
You couldn't remember?-- No.
Okay. Did I tell you I had two litters of toys that morning
or the night before I had one and the morning and I'd been up
all night when you arrived - I think shortly after you
arrived, that I had been up all night; that I was very tired
and I'd been - because of the dogs, you know, and I was - did
50
I tell you that?-- I remember saying - you saying that you had
- one of the dogs had a litter.
There were two, one that morning and one the night
before?-- Yeah.
I was up all night waiting for them to come. Yeah. Okay.
Did I tell you that, you know, in a couple of days' time I
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T22/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
would clear all that rubbish from the boarding block kennels
1
and then when the dogs - you know, after we - I shipped the
balance of the dogs up, clean it all up, so it was easier to
clean and then you could have a look at it after? Did I say
that to you?-- I can't remember.
Okay. Do you remember the trip to Dr Kennedy - Shan e Kennedy
at Woolloongabba Veterinary-----?-- Yes.
You went with?-- Yeah, Towers-Hammond.
10
Just the two of you? Did - who suggested that you both went
to see Dr Kennedy?-- Shayne.
Towers-Hammond?-- Mmm. Yes.
He's just - why would he suggest Dr Kennedy?--
BENCH: Well, he can't give - Mrs Robertson, I'm sorry, he
can't give evidence about someone else's state of mind.
20
APPLICANT: There must be an opinion or discussion as to why.
BENCH: Well - all right. Did you have a discussion with Mr
Towers-Hammond about the reason for going to the doctor-----
APPLICANT: No, I can't - okay?-- Yeah, we thought we'd get an
independent vet's view.
BENCH: All right. So you had a discussion with him, did
30
you-----?-- Yeah.
-----about that?-- Yeah. We thought we'd get an independent
vet's view on - on the video footage rather than our vet's
because then it's an independent veterinarian.
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-93
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T23/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Does that answer your question, Mrs Robertson?
1
APPLICANT: Yes, which leads to the next one. Why did you
pick him?-- It's the close vet near the area.
He's not the closest vet to the area, which
area?-- Woolloongabba.
Why Woolloongabba, you were based in Fairfield. You were
based in Logan there are lots of vets between Logan to
10
Woolloongabba?-- I don't know why we picked him, but he's a -
he's an independent vet.
Did you have a conversation with - did you or - and - well I
suppose you can only answer for yourself - have a conversation
with Dr Kennedy about the flooding and all that and the video
and what has happened?-- We asked Dr Kennedy to view the video
and give us his opinion and that's what he did.
Did you tell him what was it for, or was it - there were
20
floods or, what did you actually tell him? I mean, to go to
him you just don't say, "Have a look at the video and tell me
what you think"?-- I didn't have a real true conversation with
Dr Kennedy. Inspector Hammond had a conversation with him.
Were - were-----?-- I just operated the video.
-----you present at the conversation - sorry?-- I operated the
video.
30
You operated the video. Did you hear what he said?-- Oh,
vaguely.
Like - what did you hear that you can recall?-- What he said
of the - the living conditions for the dog was - was
inappropriate.
Mmm, how did he say that?-- Pardon?
How did he say - how did he say it to Dr Kennedy? He just
40
said - inappropriate in what sense?-- Dr Kennedy spoke to us
and told us that - we asked him for his opinion of the video.
Mmm-hmm?-- And he viewed the video and said, "It's disgusting,
what I can see." And he said, "It's inappropriate living
conditions for the animals."
Mmm. Did you tell him that it was full of faeces and urine,
or there was a flood and there's a lot of rubbish? Did anyone
say anything like that?-- I didn't have a conversation with
50
him regarding that.
Did you hear Towers-Hammond saying-----?-- No.
-----something like that? Or anything like that?-- No.
You didn't hear?-- No.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-94
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T23/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Okay. Just a couple more and then - were you aware that the
1
four days prior to the 9th, which is about the 5th, that there
was flash flooding in the area? You live at Logan around
there, don't you?-- No, I don't.
Do you? Where do you - where do you live?-- Oh, is that
relevant, your Honour?
Suburb.
10
BENCH: General area's fine, Mr Stageman?-- Fernvale.
APPLICANT: Fernvale. Where is Fernvale? Oh, half way down
to central west - west of Brisbane. Okay?-- Yeah, I'm on a
hill.
So were you aware of the - the flood conditions in Beaudesert
or Logan?-- Yes, I was. I had conversations with Beaudesert
Council regarding some cattle flooded in.
20
Where were the flooding of the cattle?-- Up the - up towards
Kooralbyn.
Where's that?-- That's on - heading out of Beaudesert up
towards Rathdowney.
Mmm-hmm, yes. So you were aware that half of Beaudesert was
under water. The worst flood in 20 years?-- Yeah.
Was there a lot of flash flooding when - in the last days
30
subsequent from the 5th to the 9th that you came across
yourself in Beaudesert?-- Jimboomba there was a bit of flash
flooding.
Mmm?-- Logan - Logan didn't expect to get any flooding and
they did get a fair bit.
Mmm?-- And all around the surrounding areas got a little bit
of flooded low laying roads.
40
Quite a bit actually, because it pelted rain non stop for
three days and it was like a fire hydrant opened up.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: No statements, please.
APPLICANT: And yet - why - what made you take out the warrant
50
on the 8th, it seems to be a bad time, everybody's under
water. There's water, water everywhere. The roads are under
water and all the kennels dogs would be looking like drown
rats, not only mine, but everybody else's?-- Well as I
explained to you before because of the complaints we had,
because of previous dealings with you that you refused us
entry into the property, and because each time we were there
we could still smell that strange smell. So the other
XXN: APPLICANT
7-95
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T23/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
complaint we got that was the one that gave the grounds. So
1
we thought we had the warrant we'd come and have a look and
inspect the property.
Are you aware that there are chicken farms near where I am and
there's the piggery within 500 metres from my home. A piggery
and chicken farms - battery farms?-- No.
Well they are and depending on how the wind blows the smell
can be pretty grim but not all the time. And - and it's
10
pretty foul, believe me. Now there are chicken farms, if you
go back and check you will find that there are chicken farms.
You weren't aware of that. The - I put it to you that you saw
it as an opportunity to come on the 8th, to go and take out a
warrant on the 8th, because you were determined - you were
quite certain that the dogs were in such appalling condition
and half drown at that, wet - and that you saw it as an
opportunity to come and take all my dogs?-- No.
Because the basis of your complaint to come up to pick up the
20
dogs, I believe, is fictitious. In the past 10 years prior to
you coming to the property RSPCA had at some point in time -
up til about seven years ago, came at least 10 times in one
year and I've never asked - I've never refused them entry. On
every inspection they've cleared me, but it was pretty close
to harassment. They've taken videos and all that and you
weren't aware of that were you, or were you not?-- No.
Now the - the complaint you had initially when you came, you
said that the complaint was based on somebody who had - two
30
persons who had dogs boarded with me about February the year
before, about 11 months ago, and they - one of them had a vet
report to say that the dogs were returned with infected eyes
and infected ears?-- Yes.
Yeah, and I said that was not true I actually take great pride
in checking the dogs before they leave and every morning. I
mean, you couldn't miss sticky eyes and ears and they're
usually minor, not major problems. And then that was the
reason, I believe, you said to me and to one of my lawyers on
40
the phone, when you came that morning of the 9th and yet in
your report later for forfeiture submission to the DPI you
said it was because of a Mr Emmanuel's complaint about the
silky terrier cross and the Pomeranian?-- It was based on two
complaints and previous dealings with you that you refused us
entry into your property to have a look. Once - twice with
Daniel Young, Kyle Chaplain and Miles was with him.
When Daniel Young came was more than 18 months ago. I think
probably two and a-half years ago from 9th of January. So
50
that was an invalid complaint anyway and when you came it was
11 months ago regarding the - the sticky eyes and infected
ears?-- That was with Kyle Chaplain.
And that was 11 months ago.
BENCH: Eleven months ago from today, or 11 months ago from
the-----
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T23/KAZ(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
APPLICANT: From the 9th of January.
BENCH: January.
APPLICANT: Eleven months, it was in February.
BENCH: Mmm-hmm.
APPLICANT: And I think that was also an unsubstantiated
10
complaint. And then later on in the report you wrote to the
Department of Primary Industries to forfeit my dogs the reason
you gave was because of a complaint made by a man who boarded
two dogs with me during Christmas and - two little dogs and he
complained about the smell and he also complained about the
dogs losing their voices. And in fact, the dogs were a
Pomeranian and an Australian Silky cross, and those two little
dogs - or the breed they are, are you aware that they don't
bark?--
20
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour-----
WITNESS: I have a Pomeranian, Geraldine, and it barks its
head off.
MS MELLIFONT: -----sorry, can I-----
BENCH: Just hang on, Mr Stageman, hang on.
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-97
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T24/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
MS MELLIFONT: There are about six questions in that. It's
1
very unfair for this witness to try and follow along the
dialogue of Mrs Robertson. Can I ask again, please, that one
question be asked at a time? I think the question goes to the
- an alleged inconsistency between the reason stated in the
application for forfeiture and something else? But I'm not
even sure, I'm sorry.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, are you seeking, that's what you're
trying to do, challenge the warrant because you say there's
10
inconsistency in what's on the grounds for the warrant and
what's in the application to the DPI. Is that right?
APPLICANT: [indistinct]
BENCH: All right. One question at a time, okay.
APPLICANT: Uh-huh. Why did you change the reason on your
application for a warrant?-- I didn't change the reason.
20
You didn't change the reason?-- No, the reason was of two
previous complaints-----
Hmm?-- -----because of past dealings with you, RSPCA where you
refused entry into the property. Each time we've had a
complaint, it's always the smell coming from the property.
You had two complaints?-- The first one that came on the 28th
of February, I didn't follow it through because the guy never
went to a vet but I kept it as records. The last complaint we
30
came was another person had dogs there, it had urine burns on
the pads, he had taken it to a vet, the smell was brought up
again, that was what I used for my grounds and because our
past visits to you and that was the grounds that gave me the
warrant-----
Right?-- -----and all the information that I got for my
grounds was passed on to the DPI for forfeiture.
Right. Now, I put it to you that the complaint on the 28th of
40
February was 28th of February 2007 because as a result, you
are saying now that you applied for a warrant on the 8th of
January 2008 on the complaint that was unfounded because the
man never got back to you, didn't have a vet report. And yet,
when you applied for the warrant, and did you agree with that,
the first bit?-- 28th of February 2008-----
And 2007?-- -----and 2007.
That was an unfounded complaint?-- No, that one on the 28th of
50
February 2007 I think that was the one I never followed
through.
That's right but that was the - that was the complaint you
received?-- That was the fox terrier.
Yes, that was the complaint you used-----?-- Yeah.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T24/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
-----to obtain your warrant?-- No, I didn't use that, I used
1
the other one. I used that as records.
No, according to the application for - let's have a look at
it?-- We've been through this when I first came to the witness
stand, Mrs Robertson.
Yeah but we didn't finish so we're trying to finish it off
today.
10
MS MELLIFONT: The application for warrant is annexed to the
affidavit of Miss Fiona Ferguson.
BENCH: Miss, sorry?
APPLICANT: The actual application, because the notes are
different. They change every time. The one that was given to
the Magistrate. Here it is.
MS MELLIFONT: It's annexed to the affidavit of Miss Fiona
20
Ferguson at Annexure 7.
APPLICANT: This is the one I'm looking for. This is the
actual application, warrant to enter. Because every one of
those documents-----
MS MELLIFONT: Sorry, your Honour, wrong document.
APPLICANT: They all have different replies, very conflicting,
very hard to read.
30
MS MELLIFONT: Right, it is Exhibit 7 and it's the affidavit
of Miss Ferguson which deals with the 104 dogs for forfeiture.
BENCH: It's a copy of the application for the warrant dated
the 8th of January, signed by a qualified J P at 10 a.m.
MS MELLIFONT: What I handed up to the witness.
BENCH: It reads, "received two complaints in regards to
40
animals", as the grounds.
APPLICANT: Now, where does it say that it was - the reason is
different from what you stated in your affidavit or your
explanation of it, in your submission?-- Well, what I put in,
in the affidavit, was everything that was on the warrant.
"Received two complaints in regards to animals that had been
boarded at the facility for a period of time on two different
occasions. Last complaint was for two dogs returned to owner
with pussy eyes and not walking properly, very strong smell of
50
urine on the dogs' coat and a strong urine odour coming from
the premises. On previous visits by an inspector, consent of
entry refused."
Okay. Now, the other one, warrant to enter, I think it's two
pages, one page after that, still Exhibit 7. Right, the next
page perhaps. Now your evidence - your information?-- That's
any animals living in inappropriate living conditions, any
XXN: APPLICANT
7-99
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T24/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
animals with disease or injury untreated, any documentation of
1
animals boarded at the kennels.
And yet you didn't examine any of the animals when you
arrived. Three metres at least from the nearest dog. Would
you agree?-- I didn't examine them, we didn't see any animals
that were showing any forms of injuries.
I put it to you that the reasons you've given for both of them
is not genuine, you made it up?-- I must protest because I do
10
not make things up. We have written complaints of people that
have made complaints. I don't act on anything except if I get
a complaint and I follow it through. I find that very
resentful what you said. I do not make things up.
Where is the letter of complaint? Wouldn't you sort of keep
it together with your application, I would?-- We don't do - we
don't leave our letters with applications for the warrants.
It stays on file.
20
What about submission to the DPI?-- DPI would have had a copy
of that.
And all properly certified and checked out?-- Everything that
we - if we apply for forfeiture goes - it's the complaint -
everything goes in.
Your Honour, is it possible to ask for a copy or the original
of that?
30
BENCH: Of the warrant?
APPLICANT: No, not the warrant. Of the basis for the
warrant, the reason. He says it's been submitted to DPI, you
know, the reasons they gave for the - I believe that it was a
made up application for the warrant and a subsequent, and the
warrant to enter.
BENCH: You're suggesting that the complaints are fictitious?
40
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Well, I have some difficulty with accepting - you're
on oath - you understand you're on oath, Inspector?-- I am,
yes, yes, your Honour.
Well, you'll need to-----?-- We can't disclose who the
complainant is under the-----
APPLICANT: Under-----?-- -----Animal Care and Protection Act. 50
Your Honour, under FOI, it should be.
BENCH: Well, it's a statutory prohibitions, if there is one
in the Act which I haven't been to. It's specific statutory
provisions override the general provisions of the Freedom of
Information legislation. There are a number of statutes that
I'm aware of. One in particular, is the Police Powers and
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T24/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Responsibilities Act, which I have some understanding of.
1
There are particular provisions in that Act which prevent the
disclosure of informants, all sorts of information. There are
other Acts that have similar provisions. I haven't looked at
this Act to see whether or not there's a similar provision but
I'm sure that if there is, I'll be given some guidance about
that.
10
20
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-101
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T25&26/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
APPLICANT: Your Honour, I believe this is a very dangerous
1
Act, animal care and welfare. It's got no respect for an
individual. It totally - it's-----
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, that - that might be a true
proposition, but as I said to you this morning, I have to act
in accordance with the law.
APPLICANT: Understand.
10
BENCH: And I will, and I won't go outside what the law is.
Now, if there is a provision in the Act which I will look at
overnight, I'm sure Mr Duong and Ms Mellifont will assist me.
They probably know the Act better than I do, but I'll
certainly do it myself, to see whether there is a statutory
prohibition, but there is a general provision at common law
that the disclosure of - if I can use the generic term -
informants, is not something that is ordinarily disclosed.
MS MELLIFONT: Section 85 is the relevant provision, I think.
20
I'd better just check back through the definitions, your
Honour.
BENCH: Well, there's a provision in the Code about releasing
information that you require as a public servant. So that
doesn't apply to this officer, does it? He's not a member of
the public service.
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, I might just look at it when we're
having a break for the - for the technical person.
30
BENCH: My understanding-----
MS MELLIFONT: It's not - 85 is not right.
BENCH: No.
MS MELLIFONT: Now I look at it in context.
BENCH: But there's - there's a - unless it's specifically
40
excused by the legislation, there's a general provision at
common law.
MS MELLIFONT: Certainly, public and community extends to
protect the confidentiality of informants. That would apply
in this case because it is to do with the - well, firstly,
informants in respect of criminal offences and, secondly, in
terms of the administration of the Act.
BENCH: But before I could even contemplate going behind the
50
warrant, I'd need to be satisfied, in my view, that there is
some impropriety in the evidence that's been given by the
person applying for the warrant and I'm quite prepared to
indicate right here and right now that I don't believe that
there is any impropriety on the - from the evidence that I've
heard from the inspector, that there is any impropriety.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-102
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T25&26/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you, your Honour. Can I also indicate
1
that a copy of the cruelty complaint summary in respect of Mrs
Robertson has been provided, in any event, to Mrs Robertson,
so there is information in terms of the recorded complaints.
She has that already, not - not blacked out.
BENCH: Not blacked out?
MS MELLIFONT: Not blacked out.
10
BENCH: Oh well-----
MS MELLIFONT: She has that already. I propose to tender it
in re-examination.
BENCH: All right.
MS MELLIFONT: I have not gone beyond that to look for the
original complaints and correspondence and all those matters,
but the information that Mrs Robertson has, at least the RSPCA
20
records-----
BENCH: Of the complaint?
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
BENCH: And that's-----
MS MELLIFONT: Records in the sense of an RSPCA officer has
entered in - like an incident report, as it were.
30
BENCH: Right.
MS MELLIFONT: Not - not the original written correspondence
or-----
BENCH: Joe Bloggs rang and said-----
MS MELLIFONT: -----phone message or whatever it happens to
be. I haven't seen that. I haven't looked for it.
40
BENCH: Well, that - that would have - impropriety would have
to - that would have to suggest that someone has entered false
details on - on the log?
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
BENCH: All right.
MS MELLIFONT: And, your Honour, in my respectful submission,
50
there's no basis for that.
BENCH: All right. Just excuse me a minute. What - I think
what we might do at this point in time is have a short break
while the technical people come down and hopefully sort out
the technical issues with the computers. It's probably also
an appropriate time seeing we've been going since a little
after 2.
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T25&26/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
Does anyone - do you have any other commitments later in the
afternoon? Can we sit a little bit longer?
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour.
BENCH: Capture as much time as we can.
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour.
10
BENCH: If you can just indicate as to how long you're able to
sit?
MS MELLIFONT: I have no other commitments, your Honour. I
have other commitments after Court, your Honour, so I'm in
your Honour's hands.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson?
APPLICANT: I'm the same.
20
BENCH: You're the same?
MR DUONG: Yes, I'm the same.
BENCH: We won't be here until dinnertime though. All right,
thank you.
30
THE COURT ADJOURNED
THE COURT RESUMED
LAWRIE STAGEMAN, CONTINUING:
40
CROSS-EXAMINATION:
BENCH: Yes, Mrs Robertson?
APPLICANT: Can I continue with a couple more?
50
BENCH: Yes, certainly.
APPLICANT: Lawrie, would you agree that - because we agreed
there was flooding in the area-----?-- Yeah.
-----that - that kennel debris at the end on the outside, a
lot of it was sort of a mixture of silt - you know, the dirt
and the mud that dried off and the water and the twigs and
XXN: APPLICANT
7-104
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T25&26/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
leaves, that sort of thing?-- The kennels that I noticed at
1
the back, some of the areas were green, so that-----
Yes?-- -----tells me that mould is growing over the top.
Because the kennels are high up a bit, I only saw a bit of mud
at the entrance and down the centre drain you have down there.
I think maybe if you look at it, the elevation of the property
is such that the kennel was built up high at the bottom of the
- like towards the centre of the property?-- Yeah.
10
But near the gate from then onwards, the land was definitely
higher. It sort of came down to a gully and then the
drains?-- Yeah, it did slope a bit.
Because - yeah, and a lot of the material on the outside of
the kennels were actually because it rained so heavy for the
four days continuously that the water couldn't - it was so dry
at first that everything floated out?-- Mmm.
20
It couldn't get through the ground and by the end of the third
day, most of the water had soaked through because we had
problems with the septic and then when the water subsided and
sort of had to go through the drains, the silt was out there
and, in fact, the sun didn't come up to the day before and
literally a lot of the stuff went green. It wasn't bacteria,
but I think it was just the fact that it hadn't seen sun for
three days or something like that and that was what I thought
caused the green, but then again, you know-----?-- Yeah, but
some - some of those pens, they did have a lot of faeces
30
built-up out there - out in those bay areas.
Maybe if we look at the video again so we can identify and if
you see the faeces, give us a shout because, you know, a lot
of it was, in fact, silt because when the water subsided, it
came through and the fine bits were drained through and, well,
they were cleared, but still there was a lot left and you
could see the leaves, so if you see faeces, you know, say,
"Stop", please. Yes. There's silt and debris or whatever.
40
BENCH: This is the exit video?
APPLICANT: Yes, please. Is exit one we wanted or entry?
Exit. Okay. Because all the dogs have been shifted out,
yeah.
TAPE PLAYED
50
APPLICANT: That's it. Slow down if you could.
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
XXN: APPLICANT
7-105
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T25&26/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
WITNESS: That - that would be a combination of a bit of mud
and faeces all crunched in together.
APPLICANT: I think the - all right, crunched in together
where?-- Well, where the dogs have been doing their business
out there as well, but a lot of that is dirt. You can see
that.
10
Which part is dirt?-- Well, if you look at the green line,
comes around and then where it comes up-----
Are we looking at the same line - green line?-- Pardon?
Where's the green line?-- The green's at the back towards the
entrance.
Oh yeah, the brownish-----?-- The brownish sort of like
greenish.
20
Mmm?-- Then you've got all the - a bit of a mud and you've got
- you'll find that mould will grow on faeces. It's been there
for a while - especially when it's wet. There are some knobs
of faeces there, but I'd say some of that would be a lot of -
would be dog faeces compressed into the mud.
Which way?-- Over in that corner, you can see the lumps.
Which corner, the one with the leaves and things?-- Yeah.
30
Twigs and leaves?-- Yeah.
On the right-hand side?-- On the right-hand side.
BENCH: Top of the image or the bottom of the image?-- On the
top.
Top right-hand side?-- Yeah.
40
APPLICANT: Isn't that more like sort of leaves and twigs and
that sort of a thing? Remember those kennels were under water
for - about four inches of - up to about that high on the wall
- against the wall, all of that was?-- Well, there was a bit
of faeces in there, but I - there is mud all in the front area
there.
Okay. Thanks. Andrew, please?
50
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
APPLICANT: Hold it, thank you. What about all that?-- Well,
a lot of that's leaves in the front. Down that alleyway, bit
XXN: APPLICANT
7-106
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T25&26/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
of green - green sort of like mildew on the ground, like
1
mould.
It's not mould, it's on dirt?-- On dirt?
Have a look. I put it to you that most of it is silt mixed
up. If it was faeces, there was still lumps because most of
those kennels had been emptied for a few days?-- Yeah, you
admitted too that it was raining and a lot of that would just
go into the mud as well. There is - there is some there with
10
a bit of mixture.
Yeah, there's a mixture. Mmm. Because a lot of it was
flooded. It was under four inches water?-- Yeah.
In and out. Some of it managed to get out, some of it didn't,
so you - would you agree it's mainly faeces or just silt and -
and debris? See - you can see the leaves, the twigs?-- Well,
it was silt and debris with manure - faeces mixed into it.
20
It couldn't be that much faeces, Lawrie. Remember-----?-- No,
not at - no, like I'm not saying some of those pens have got a
great deal in them, but some have got some there. Others had
more than others that - from what we could see in there that
had been trampled into the mud.
Can we go back, please, to where all the bags were at the
site?
30
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
BENCH: Back to the sewerage?
APPLICANT: Yep, septic tank.
BENCH: Septic tank, I should say.
40
APPLICANT: Top of the septic tank.
BENCH: There. Stop there.
APPLICANT: Now, stop, please, Andrew. What do you think was
in those bags, Lawrie? Did you have a look at them?-- I had a
look and I didn't know what they were.
Well, they were actually part of the faeces and the mud and
50
everything else. Did you see them? They were more like dirt
mixed up?-- Yeah, looked all clumpy, but I didn't stick my
head down to have a look.
It's not all clumpy, it's - it's a mixture of debris, leaves,
twigs, you know, dirt because it was like soup. I couldn't
put it down the septic because the septic - all the water
level had gone right up to the top.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-107
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T25&26/AL(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, the question has been asked and
answered. He said what he saw.
APPLICANT: So - and that came from the front of those
kennels?-- Well, that's - that did.
Mmm. Together with sacks?-- And that was where we saw it
there.
10
Mmm?-- That was where we saw it there.
Yes, because the rain had fallen on to it and collapsed it
because it couldn't be disposed of.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, keep it as a question not as a
statement.
APPLICANT: All right. The question is - now, that is mostly
debris, dirt with some, I suppose, faeces because we just
20
couldn't separate them. There was a lot of dirt-----?-- Well,
you can't do that.
-----and a lot of debris and sacks?-- Yeah.
Okay? Now, it's virtually the same stuff up the front because
they were the residual. That was all - all the bigger pieces
were collected when they could with a shovel and whatnot and
bagged. Now, we had to help clear it, so what do you think is
up at the front again, if we can go back - go forward and -
30
does it look more like dirt and debris or-----
MS MELLIFONT: Mrs Robertson-----
BENCH: Sorry, I'm not sure. Where are you going, Mrs
Robertson? You want to go-----
APPLICANT: Oh, just go forward now, back to-----
BENCH: You want the video to go forward?
40
APPLICANT: Yep, just going - finishing it off.
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
APPLICANT: Stop, please. All that green stuff where the
50
drain is, you could see where the dirt and the drain mix. If
we can go back two inches. Did you remember some of that just
now?-- Yeah.
Yeah. Okay, we can go forward then, thanks. Would you
still-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-108
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T27/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
1
APPLICANT: Mr Hammond keeps saying - Towers-Hammond kept
saying, "Faeces", that's all he saw, faeces and urine. He -
somebody else too - didn't see any rain. There's no rain,
there's no water, faeces and urine. The whole yard was full
of faeces and urine. Do you see that too?-- No, I see a bit
of mud there but I also do see a combination of faeces
10
trampled into the mud and some little yard areas had a bit of
- lumps of faeces in it. Some of those pens did have mud in
it.
So it's a mixture of mud, debris, you agree?-- Well, not so
much debris.
What's all that in front, look at it?-- Well, that all - yeah,
but there's no leaves in the pens.
20
Sorry?-- There's no leaves in the pens.
Because the leaves are - imagine it under four inches of water
and visualise it - and when the water flows, because those
kennels graded down to the drain which is outside and the
inside part go into the central drain. There are three
drains?-- Well, my observation of the pens there was a bit of
mud and a bit of faeces in some of the pens. Some pens had
faeces and other pens had all mud.
30
Some pens had all faeces or-----?-- Some pens had a lot of
faeces in it, other pens had mud.
Which pen had a lot of faeces, we better have a look?-- Some
of the pens that had mud didn't have dogs in.
Yeah, because they were cleared about three, four days ago and
because of that - remember it was flooded under four inches of
water and the water had to subside. It couldn't go anywhere
till the level dropped all on the property and it took many
40
hours to do that. The first thing that would float out, I
would assume, would be the leaves?-- Oh, the leaves would go,
yeah.
Hence you've got a big row of it and it's held in there, you
know the fence line, because of the twigs. Because the leaves
are lighter and the rest of it would be the residual, the dirt
and the silt and the dust that has-----.
BENCH: Mrs Robertson, it's late in the day. Please don't
50
make statements. Ask a question.
APPLICANT: Yes. The question is, do you still - what do you
see-----?-- Well, I didn't make this-----
-----a mixture?-- I didn't take this video. You're asking me
from somebody else's video.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-109
WIT: STAGEMAN L
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27082008 D.7 T27/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
But you were on the property that day?-- I was on the property
1
that day, that I'd noticed in the-----
It's the same kennel?-- -----pens there are some faeces,
there's some mud, there's some mixed up faeces, there is a
combination between each pens.
Okay. We'll just leave it. Now can we move on to the 22nd of
February, the second raid where yourself-----?-- Yeah.
10
-----Towers-Hammond, who organised the raid, or did he,
together with Daniel Young, arrived in three utilities -
Toyota utility trucks with enclosed wire kennels. The 22nd,
the second raid-----?-- The second raid-----
-----of February?-- -----that was only my truck.
There were three cars?-- There was Daniel Young's-----
Yes?-- -----'cause he left early and my car.
20
There was three because we all saw three and Margaret's was
four?-- Yes, there was a - there was a - Shayne was driving
his own car. There was three cars.
Shayne was driving his own car. So there were three cars?
What sort of a car did Shayne drive?-- Courier.
A Courier? What is a Courier?-- Ford Courier.
30
A Ford Courier? What does it look like, has it got the cage
at the back of it or just-----?-- No, the canopy.
Canopies, more or less similar, okay. That's probably what
was misleading. And you were driving a Toyota?-- No, I was
driving a Ford Ranger.
A Ford Ranger? And what was Daniel Young driving?-- He was
driving a Rodeo with a canopy.
40
Okay, who had the wire at the back?-- My car.
Yours was the one with the wire?-- I've got two - in the back
of my car I've got two 900 square pens in the centre and I've
got storage on either side.
Whose that didn't have any pens? It's just one big covered
up?-- No, I've got two pens in there. There's the two doors.
What about Towers-Hammond and Daniel Young?-- They just have
50
an open back. I think Daniel might have dog cage in his. The
collapsible dog cage.
Whose - where did you park your car - your ute?-- My car was
up against your door.
So up against the reception area?-- Yeah.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-110
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T27/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Uh-huh. So that was the one that Towers-Hammond was loading
1
things and putting on - was that your car?-- That was my car.
How much records did he fill up that day?-- He filled up the
whole back.
The whole back of it was packed?-- Yep.
Did you know everything that went into the back of that car,
your car?-- All the evidence that was taken, all the ones that
10
were tagged.
From you, from Daniel Young, from yourself, from Towers-
Hammond and Daniel Young - I think there was only three of you
that day?-- Yeah.
Okay. Now, the - did you come with any cages or anything like
that?-- Yes, I always carry two cat cages. I carry a big one
and small one. I put the small one inside the cat carry cage
and I normally have them in the back section. I had used it
20
previously, it was in the front section and I had put stuff
over the top.
Uh-huh, do you know who - did you go into my room, my
bedroom?-- No, I didn't.
You did not. Do you know who went into my bedroom or you saw
anyone else go in?-- No, I didn't. I was mainly in your
office area.
30
That's right. What time did you leave that day?-- Oh, I don't
know - I can't remember what time it was. I know it was
probably mid-afternoon, bit later.
Did you leave before Towers-Hammond and Daniel Young,
or-----?-- Daniel, he left before - he had to go and do a job.
He had a major job to go and do too and there was just Shayne
and myself.
He didn't leave till 4.30 - I know because he was in the
40
kitchen, I saw him?-- Yeah.
And did you take those dead puppies from the fridge?-- No, I
didn't.
Do you know who took them?-- No, as far as I know, no-one took
any puppies.
According to [indistinct] Sloane, Shayne Towers-Hammond and
Daniel Young were coming out of the storeroom, where the
50
freezers were kept and the dead puppies were. Did you go into
that storeroom?-- No.
You didn't. Did you go into the house - main house itself,
other than the office?-- I went into the kitchen. Daniel was
- found some drugs in your fridge.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-111
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T27/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
The old fridge, yes?-- Yeah and I was mainly in your office
1
area with all the piles of paper there and a bit in the lounge
where those cages were.
Who was-----?-- There were also papers there.
Who was Daniel Young speaking to on the phone in the
kitchen?-- Ah, honestly I don't know.
Did you ring anyone from the house that day - RSPCA?-- Not to
10
my recollection, I didn't. Half the time I can't hear the
phone anyway.
When Towers-Hammond was in Brisbane, who is his boss - when
he's in Brisbane?-- Michael Pecic.
Michael Pecic. He's responsible for Shayne Towers-
Hammond?-- He's responsible for all of us.
For all of you?-- Hmm.
20
Ah and who's responsible for him?-- For Michael Pecic?
Um?-- Mark Townend.
Sorry?-- Mark Townend.
Who is Mark Townend?-- He's the CEO of the RSPCA.
Mark Townend?-- Yeah. Townend.
30
Tan?-- Townend.
T-O-W-N-E-N-D?-- E-N-D.
I thought it was S-E-N-D?-- No, oh well, its Townend.
Ah, because Mr Mulherin calls him S-E-N-D, so. Anyway, back
to this. The - did you take all those records back with you
when you left?-- Yeah, went straight back to the RSPCA.
40
Did you drive them - drive them back?-- I did.
And where did you put it?-- Put in our evidence room.
When did you - do you know when those records were sent to
Clayton Utz, the lawyers?-- Yeah.
When?-- A few days later or a week later.
50
Did you authorise it or somebody did?-- I signed the records
over to Tracey and Tracey signed them over to Clayton Utz.
When - when did you?-- I - timing and dates, I don't know - it
was just - we have sort of like a continuity where we have
those tags and any evidence is locked in the evidence room and
there's only certain people have - can get the key to go into
the evidence room, 'cause we keep other stuff in there as
XXN: APPLICANT
7-112
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T27/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
well, and we went through some of your documents and put it
1
into envelopes and each time someone went in there, we signed
on the blue card. Then when we took them over to Clayton Utz,
they signed them off us.
But you don't remember when the records - because there were
records missing and I'm just trying to identify when it got
missing?-- Ah okay, well everything that was in that evidence
room that we took from your property - I put it in the
evidence room from my car.
10
You put it in yourself?-- I put it all - I put it in the
evidence room, me and Shayne, and then it stayed there until
we went through it - a few other things and to get information
from that, and then the - Clayton Utz wanted all the files so
we took them over to there. I don't know what dates we did
this and they signed-----
Did you do on your own or-----?-- They signed them off us.
20
30
40
50
XXN: APPLICANT
7-113
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T28/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Mmm?-- And each time someone went in there we signed-----
1
Mmm?-- -----on the blue card.
Mmm?-- Then when we took them over to Clayton Utz they signed
them off us.
Mmm. But you don't remember when the records - because there
were records missing and I'm just trying to identify when it
got missing?-- Oh, okay, well look everything that was in that
10
evidence room that we took from your property, 'cause I put it
in the evidence room from my car-----
Mmm. You put it in yourself?-- I put it - well, I put it in
the evidence room me and Shayne-----
Mmm?-- -----and then it stayed there until we went through it
- a few other things to get information from that.
Mmm?-- And then the Clayton Utz wanted all the files so we
20
took them all over to there. I don't know what dates we did
this, and they signed them off-----
Did you do it on your own-----?-- -----they signed them off
us.
Mmm?-- 'Cause everything has to be signed for-----
Mmm?-- -----and Clayton Utz signed them - signed them from us.
30
Did Towers-Hammond actually help you put the records in that
room, or did you do it yourself?-- Ah, I think he helped me do
it 'cause there were a few boxes we had to carry up and - and
put in there.
You said that he took the records, gave them to you and you
put them away and signed them and locked them up?-- Well, we -
when we - we brought them in, because he handed - he ceased
them, so he signed them over to me 'cause I put them in the
room and then when I went through some of the files in there
40
to - to get information out, I signed them and I signed them
when I went through them and then when they were put back in
again, then when we took them to Clayton Utz, they signed them
off him.
They signed them off you; so you delivered them?-- Yeah, I
went with Tracey and-----
Mmm?-- -----Shayne.
50
When - when did that happen; do you know? Can you
remember?-- I don't know what date.
Immediately - it was Friday the 22nd of February, was it a few
days, or a couple of weeks later, or whatever?-- I think it
was a couple of weeks later.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-114
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T28/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
A few weeks later. Okay. There were three of you that took
1
the records to-----?-- Yeah.
-----Tracey Jackson, yourself and - and Charles Hammond; the
three of you delivered the records to Clayton Utz?-- No, I
don't think Shayne was there, I think Shayne had already gone
back to Rockhampton. I think - it was Tracey and me.
Mmm. Just the two of you. Okay. Now, were you aware that
there were items missing; personal items that had nothing to
10
do with the dogs but there was jewellery missing, there was
cash missing?-- No.
MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, this line of questing was already
ruled to be - or the topic anyway was already ruled to be
inadmissible by Her Honour, Bradford-Morgan.
BENCH: Magistrate?
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, Magistrate, sorry.
20
BENCH: I thought you said, Coroner.
MS MELLIFONT: No, Her Honour.
BENCH: Her Honour.
APPLICANT: Well, how am I going to find out who took them?
BENCH: That is a question that is not relevant for the - for
30
the purpose of the proceedings, Mrs Robertson.
APPLICANT: They wouldn't have gone missing if-----
BENCH: Mrs Robertson. Mrs Robertson. Her Honour has made a
ruling in respect of the admissibility of the relevance of
that - that area that you want to go down, and I have to say
to you now that it is no relevance in my view as to the
decision by the inspectors to seize the dogs, and it seems to
have little or no relevance to the question of the order made
40
by the - the delegate. We have to maintain focus on the
relevant issues.
APPLICANT: Okay. I think that's basically it. I'm not
allowed to ask questions about the documents, it was a
[indistinct] for documents. They took a lot of personal
documents, but-----
BENCH: You've made it - you know, you've made it abundantly
clear that your position-----
50
APPLICANT: Mmm.
BENCH: -----is that-----
APPLICANT: Okay.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-115
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T28/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
BENCH: -----some of the - the documents that were taken from
1
you-----
APPLICANT: Mmm.
BENCH: -----by the RSPCA which don't appear-----
APPLICANT: Mmm.
BENCH: -----on the - on the list or the material that's been
10
provided to you through Clayton Utz; I understand that.
APPLICANT: Okay.
BENCH: But, as I say-----
APPLICANT: Yes. Okay.
BENCH: -----it's - it's-----
20
APPLICANT: Okay. I think-----
BENCH: I don't think it's a relevant consideration from my
course of my determination.
APPLICANT: Yes. Okay. I think that's it, I'm finished
with-----
BENCH: Thank you.
30
RE-EXAMINATION:
MS MELLIFONT: Mr Stageman, Mrs Robertson suggested to you and
you agreed, that she told you on the 9th of January that she
had not cleaned for two days. Was what you saw consistent
with Mrs Robertson not having cleaned for only two
40
days?-- There were so many areas looked like they hadn't been
cleaned for a couple of weeks.
You also asked a series of questions in terms of some
properties 500 metres away or thereabouts, now did the smell
that you experienced on the 9th of January 2008 strike you as
something blowing in from something off location?-- No, it was
coming from - from that location.
On the 22nd of February 2008; did you see any dead puppies
50
anywhere at Mrs Robertson's property?-- No, I didn't.
In so far as the transcript that you've had with you in the
witness box of the conversations of the 9th of January
2008-----?-- Could you repeat that please?
RXN: MS MELLIFONT
7-116
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T28/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
I haven't asked the question yet. In so far as that
1
transcript that you have there, when did you first see it?-- I
saw it yesterday afternoon.
Where were you?-- At Clayton Utz.
What were you doing?-- To come to have a look at the
transcript.
For what purpose?-- To make sure everything's all right on it.
10
All right. Did you do that?-- I did that but we got - had a -
a fire alarm went off and there was high pitched sirens going
on and it made it very hard to - the transcript was already
done, I just went through it and from what I can remember -
from what - and we played a bit of the tape, from what we
could hear but I couldn't understand a lot of it.
Did you play all of the tape?-- No.
20
Right. In your evidence in cross-examination in respect to
the 9th of January 2008, you said you saw a couple of dogs
dragged and you spoke to the persons doing that and told them
not to do it that way?-- Yes.
Who were those persons?-- Um, Council.
Council. In respect of the transport of the dogs back from
Mrs Robertson's property on the 9th of January 2008, did you
see any crowding you would describe as inappropriate
30
overcrowding in so far as the transport back to the
shelter?-- No, I didn't because I didn't see all the - all the
transportation cages for the animals.
Do you agree or disagree with the proposition that there were
no flies on Mrs Robertson's property on the 9th of January
2008?-- I don't - I don't agree that there was no flies on
there.
Can you please have a look at Exhibit 18, photograph
40
27?-- Photograph 27?
Photograph 27?-- Yes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your cross-examination, at
first you thought it might have been from the video?-- I
thought - I thought it might have been from the video, but I
noticed when I went through the photos before there was other
photographs there that were the same from the camera, so I
think this was a copy off my camera, but for some unknown
50
reason it's not showing the date it come on-----
Now, you - you said in cross-examination that you had printed
some stills off the video - the video?-- Yeah.
All right. Can you just have a look at this photograph -
sorry, this printout please? Now there's no need to describe
what's depicted in it, but I want you - you to tell us whether
RXN: MS MELLIFONT
7-117
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T28/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
or not that's an example of a still you printed from the
1
video?-- That's - that's an example I printed-----
All right?-- -----from the video.
All right. Do you see the format there; you see the format of
the printout?-- Yeah, digital.
Yes. Do you recall whether in respect of all of the printouts
from the video they were - were in similar format, or a
10
different format?-- No, they were a different format because
my video was a high eight. I - Channel 10 had used my video
to transcribe it to a digital, and I took these still photos
of the Channel 10 DVD.
All right. Just - just so I'm clear, the - the video we've
been seeing for the last several days as it were of the entry
video-----?-- The entry video was off my high eight.
Right?-- Yeah.
20
Now, is that still something that was off your high
eight?-- That's off my high eight.
30
40
50
RXN: MS MELLIFONT
7-118
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T29/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Right. Okay. Thank you. Can I tender that, please, your
1
Honour?
BENCH: That's Exhibit 29.
ADMITTED AND MARKED "EXHIBIT 29"
10
MS MELLIFONT: You said that a person named Jed, took some of
that entry video. Jed, who?-- Jed Goodfellow.
Who is he?-- Jed Goodfellow is a casual Inspector for the
RSPCA.
Where is he?-- He's now in England.
You were asked a series of questions in respect of the
20
complaints that you relied on in swearing out your application
for a warrant?-- Yes.
Can you have a look at this bundle of documents, please? Have
you seen this bundle of documents before?-- Could you repeat
that, please?
Sorry. Have you seen this bundle of documents before?-- I
have.
30
What is it?-- They're Cruelty Complaint Summaries.
In respect of-----?-- Of Cruelty Complaint regarding animals
at Waterford Boarding Kennels.
Where did these documents come from?-- From people who have
seen an issue that they're concerned about and have contacted
the RSPCA and made a complaint.
All right. But in respect of the actual information here, it
40
has - it would have had to have been inputted into a computer
somewhere I take it?-- It does. Yes.
Okay. Now, where's the computer?-- At the RSPCA.
And who inputs the information?-- The - the complaints come
through the call centre. The call centre sends the complaint
through to the Complaints Coordinator and then she puts them
into the Inspector's areas.
50
Right. But who puts the information into the computer?-- The
call centre puts the - the call centre operator puts the
information into the computer.
All right. Does the Inspector ever put any information into
the computer?-- Only when we go out and do the job. Then we
do a - a - like inspection.
RXN: MS MELLIFONT
7-119
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T29/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
All right. Now, you've said in respect of your application
1
for a warrant, you had reference to two prior
complaints?-- Yes.
Okay. Do those prior complaints appear in this bundle, and if
so, can you tell us what pages, please?-- Page 14.
And is that the only - is that the only-----?-- Sorry.
Is that the only page in respect of the two complaints?-- No.
10
Well, that - that page was when I went with another Inspector.
All right. So, in respect of page 14, you'll see there's a
"Date received" at the top, "7 November 2005"?-- Yeah.
What's that intended to indicate? What - what is that
date?-- That date is the date that the complaint came.
Okay. Now, you'll see that your name appears towards the
bottom of the page, on a couple of occasions?-- Yes, where
20
I've had a couple of complaints.
All right. So, if you can - if you can explain this document,
please?-- Okay. These are Cruelty Complaint Summaries. The
Inspector gets - prints these off the computer after the job's
been put in his name. So, he prints the jobs off and this is
what he goes by to go out to the property to have a look,
because there'd been previous Inspectors gone out to Mrs
Robertson's place on 13, 11 and 10, and 8. On three
occasions, Inspector - well, four occasions before that, an
30
Inspector's been out there.
All right. Can you look at please, at page 16? You'll see
there that your name appears about two-thirds of the way down
the page, "3 January 2008, Officer Lawrie Stageman"?-- Yes.
All right. What does that record?-- That records the - the
request date that I was given - that the complaint was made
for an Inspector to have a look.
40
All right. Did you make an inspection? I - I see. So,
that's the time that the complaint came in on the 3rd of
January?-- Yes.
All right - in the days preceding the application for the
warrant?-- Yes.
Your Honour, I tender that bundle of documents.
BENCH: Exhibit 30.
50
ADMITTED AND MARKED "EXHIBIT 30"
RXN: MS MELLIFONT
7-120
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T29/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
MS MELLIFONT: Mr Stageman, you said that the date on the
1
entry video is wrong. Do you know whether or not the time is
correct?-- I'm not too sure on that. I'm pretty - I thought
it was. I did have trouble with that camera. That's why I
don't have it any more.
Thank you. Nothing further, your Honour. Might this witness
be excused?
BENCH: Yes. Thank you, Mr Stageman. Yes.
10
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION:
APPLICANT: Your Honour, I would like to ask Mr Stageman one
last question.
20
BENCH: What's it in relation to, Mrs Robertson?
APPLICANT: Well, in relation to the call centre calls,
whether any of those callers are verified by RSPCA, the person
who's accepting or the Inspector, as a genuine call. In other
words, if somebody rang up and made a fictitious call and just
give you know - and complained about you, for example-----
BENCH: Mmm. Mmm.
30
APPLICANT: -----I say, "Gee, you've got three dogs in the
house killing each other"-----
BENCH: Yes.
APPLICANT: -----"in your yard."
BENCH: Yes. When in fact, I don't have a dog, at all-----
APPLICANT: Did somebody-----
40
BENCH: Yes. All right.
APPLICANT: Yeah, exactly.
BENCH: All right. Would you answer that question, Mr
Stageman?
WITNESS: Yes. The Inspectors, we always contact the
complainant to verify that it is true.
50
APPLICANT: Do you make a note of it? The other thing too, is
do you make a note of it somewhere, that when you
contact-----?-- We just say-----
-----them?-- -----We - sometimes, we'd write in our inspection
notes that we have contacted the - the complainant.
FXXN: APPLICANT
7-121
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T29/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Mmm?-- But the reason why I didn't contact the complainant
1
because it's the second complaint I've had in regards to your
property-----
Mmm?-- -----and because the past experience that I've had with
you, and what other Inspectors had with you, I thought, well,
the only way I'm going to have a look at this place, is to go
in with a warrant.
Mr Stageman, I put it to you, you lie, because in the past
10
there's always been inspections and although when the - the
RSPCA Chief Inspector was Brian Hall, he always verified and
he made sure, because every time there were - there were
Inspectors that came round out of their own initiative, when
there were no complaints, and I used to ring up the office and
complain, and we would ring and speak to the Inspector, and
then he would resolve it, and either they came out together.
I say, "You can - you're welcome to inspect." Now that has
been going on for years?-- Well-----
20
Now, and I believe-----
BENCH: Well, just - just let him respond to - to that.
APPLICANT: Yes. Why didn't you record, or did you not record
- you - you mentioned just now that you did not record the
first complaint?-- Well, it's up to our discretion if we
contact the complainant. If we want to make sure about
something we will ring the complainant.
30
Mmm. Up to your discretion. In other words, you don't always
follow up on the complaints, to make sure that it's not a
time-wasting complaint?-- Most times we go out and we have a
look at the situation, but because your past experience of
denying us entry onto the property-----
Mmm-hmm?-- -----and you've even denied people's request to go
and have a look at the kennels before I even leave the dogs
there.
40
I put it to you, you lied, because I mean I-----?-- Well, I'm
sorry, but I do not lie.
BENCH: Hang on, Mrs Robertson.
WITNESS: -----have only denied you entry on one occasion.
BENCH: Hang on, Mrs Robertson. You've put to him that he's
lying.
50
APPLICANT: Yes. He's lying.
BENCH: I want to hear the response - the response.
WITNESS: Mmm. I do not lie. Because of past experience I've
had. Inspector Young has had two or three visits with you,
and you've denied him entry into the property. You've brought
FXXN: APPLICANT
7-122
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T29/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
dogs out to show him. When I was with Col Chaplin you denied
1
us entry into the property after repeated requests.
You have only been on my property on two occasions?-- I've had
one - yeah, two occasions.
BENCH: Well, I think - I think we've been - we've traversed
all of this.
APPLICANT: Mmm. Mmm. All right.
10
BENCH: Nothing else? Thank you. Thank you, Inspector.
You're excused. Thanks for coming.
WITNESS EXCUSED
20
30
40
50
FXXN: APPLICANT
7-123
WIT: STAGEMAN L
60
27082008 D.7 T30/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
MS MELLIFONT: Is it convenient to call another witness?
1
BENCH: It's convenient to me, if it's convenient to everyone
else?
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, thank you. I'll call Tracey Jackson.
BENCH: Inspector, would you arrange for, is it Miss Jackson
that's going to be coming next? Would you ask Miss Jackson to
come in, please. Thank you.
10
MS MELLIFONT: Might I just remove everything else from the
witness box, your Honour.
BENCH: Yes, please. There's also the folder of [indistinct],
do you want that?
MS MELLIFONT: If that might remain, please?
BENCH: Remain? Yes, certainly.
20
TRACEY ANNE JACKSON, SWORN AND EXAMINED:
MS MELLIFONT: Can you state your full name, please?-- Tracey
Anne Jackson.
30
Where do you work?-- RSPCA as a senior inspector.
How long have you worked with the RSPCA?-- Since March this
year.
March 2008?-- 2008.
Where were you before that?-- I was at a school, working at
the school, administration assistant.
40
Do you have any previous law enforcement experience?-- I do.
I have almost 10 years policing experience and I've also had
several years of law studies.
And in respect of the policing experience, which police
service?-- The Queensland Police Service and most of my time
was spent as a detective and specialising mainly in child
abuse and sex offences.
Have you sworn an affidavit in these proceedings?-- I have.
50
Can you have a look at this document, please? Two page
affidavit sworn on the 14th of August, 2008. Is that your
affidavit?-- That is my affidavit.
Is everything within it - oh, sorry, can I take you please to
paragraph 2, see there's a date there, the 3rd of April
XN: MS MELLIFONT
7-124
WIT: JACKSON T A
60
27082008 D.7 T30/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
2001?-- There's a typo in there. It says 3rd of April 2001,
1
it should read 3rd of April 2008.
Apart from that correction, is everything within that
affidavit true and correct?-- It is.
You refer to having picked up - taken property from the RSPCA
and taking it in to Clayton Utz and handing it over to Mr
Dean?-- That's right.
10
Can you look please at Exhibit 23, in the white folder to your
right? Can you look through those photos, please, and you'll
see there are photographs with blue tagging?-- Yes.
Do you recognise the material in those photographs?-- I do.
What is it?-- That's the evidence that I took out of the
evidence room and took into Clayton Utz.
Miss Jackson, have you engaged in a process of looking through
20
photographs which you understand to have been photographs
taken of the dogs seized from Mrs Robertson's premises on the
9th of January 2008?-- I have.
And those photographs - sorry, where do you understand those
photographs were taken?-- At the RSPCA shelter.
All right. Have you gone through the process of seeking to
extract out of that collection, a photograph per animal?-- I
have, with the exception of two photographs that were actually
30
photographs of dogs that were at Mrs Robertson's premises,
they were the two Labrador puppies. We weren't able to locate
photographs of those-----
All right?-- -----at the shelter.
Can you have a look at this document, please? Is that a
document you've put together?-- It is.
Did you have assistance in respect of it?-- I did.
40
From whom?-- I had some assistance from the shelter manager,
from the vets and Chester. I had assistance from, that's
about it, I think - and Chester and initially, just to get the
actual data dumped in there, I asked another senior inspector
at work to do that for me.
All right. Can you take us please through this table? Column
1 is headed "number", what's that intended to
indicate?-- That's just a count, an actual count of the number
50
of entries in the data base.
What's the second column, "animal ID", where does that come
from?-- The second column comes out of our shelter main data
base which is the data base that the RSPCA uses to manage
animals and their identifications.
XN: MS MELLIFONT
7-125
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T30/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Manage what kind of animals?-- Animals - all sorts of animals
1
- animals that are seized, any animal that comes into our
care.
And how is an animal given that particular animal
identification number?-- When the inspector or when the animal
arrives at the centre, one way or the other, the animal is
identified and the details of the animal are entered into the
data base and then automatically given that animal ID number.
10
Third column, self-explanatory, is the type of animal, I take
it?-- Type of animal, it's a dog.
And the breed, also self-explanatory. Now, the name, where do
you get the name from?-- The shelter manager's - if there's no
names provided with the dogs at the time, or if there's - for
the purposes of ease of - the animal attendants dealing with
the dogs on a daily basis, they name the dogs.
All right?-- So when they're talking, rather than talking in
20
like, black 05357, they'll say, "Max" and so all the animal
attendants and the vets know which dog they're referring to
then.
All right. Now there's tag number, what are you referring to
in respect of tag number?-- The tag number is a tag that is
put on the animal to identify the source of the animal, so
where it's come from. In this instance, when they're seized
animals, they're black tags. Any animal that an inspector's
seized or an animal that the inspector needs held for any
30
purpose. Other colour tags are for other purposes, when
they're surrendered by people, found as strays.
There are in respect of some of the dogs, more than one tag
number? Can you please explain to the Court, why and can you
also, if it applies, tell us whether that's information from
your own knowledge or whether it's information you've received
from somebody else, please?-- All right. What I do know is
that when the tags were originally put on, and this has
happened, we're in the situation of rectifying it. We've now
40
been given permission to micro chip, but initially we
couldn't, so we had to black tag the animals, and the tags,
when the dogs are put in the kennels, the dogs sometimes chew
each other's tags. So in this case, on a couple of the times,
dogs have lost their tags, one way or the other, and so
they've been re-tagged. But to keep continuity, we record the
original tag number and then we say that it was - so, we'll
say black tag 5757, previously known as black tag 5288, or
whatever. So that at any given point in time, you'd be able
to identify that dog.
50
Then on to the column, "photo", we see the letters variously
A, N and B. What's A stand for?-- A is - stand for after
shot. So it means it's a shot taken after the animal's been
attended to; it's been cared for, it's been clipped and at
that time, like the after shot may be anywhere from
immediately after clipping to more likely, you know, some days
or even a couple of weeks later.
XN: MS MELLIFONT
7-126
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T30/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
All right and how did you discern whether the time at which
the photographs were taken?-- Because it's on the properties
of the photograph and it's on the - in the computer and
because, depending on which tags which were held up in the
photographs. And I can explain it in more detail but there
was a day when Jane Barr, another senior inspector, went
through and photographed all of the dogs and that was after
they'd all been tended to. And she only did it for two days,
so that was - she went through and held up - see you can see
10
her in some of the photographs.
Right?-- So there's a number of different methods but mainly
the properties of the digital photograph will tell you what
day the photo was taken and sometimes it's on the face of the
photograph itself.
20
30
40
50
XN: MS MELLIFONT
7-127
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T31/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
All right. So I'll show you a bundle of photos, I might just
1
get you to further explain that. I'm handing you up - handing
up a bundle of photographs - just take the photograph of the -
as an example please. There's some handwriting on the back,
number 1 in a circle, followed by 28744. Whose handwriting is
that?-- Oh, that's my handwriting.
Now what those numbers indicate?-- Number 1 is simply the
number of the photograph so I put them in order - in the order
that they run in, in the database, and so they're numbered
10
from 1 to 91. The number beside that number is the animal ID
number, or the tag number sorry if you look - and one, two,
three, four - they're six column along the tag number. So -
yeah, so that you could track each photograph back to its-----
Now, this photograph I take it is a printout from a computer
source?-- That's right.
And you spoke of, "properties"?-- Yeah, if you're going to -
if you - if you open up a computer file, any computer file,
20
there will be a properties - that will tell you details about
the data of that file. And in this properties it will tell you
about dates modified, dates created and particular with
digital photography data, it will tell you dates, photograph
taken.
Okay. And is that what you had reference to?-- I had
reference to that. I could also - I also cross-reference so
there was a number of checks I did, so I would check with
Jane. If she was in any of the photographs or if they were
30
photographs that she had been involved in, she could tell me
that she did not do that until afterwards, so she told me that
that was done, you know, a couple of weeks later.
All right. So that's after. Now, what's the, "N,"
indicate?-- "N?" Oh, "N," indicates no photograph found. We
had one particular computer hard-drive fail or crash and we
weren't able to recover a small proportion of photographs off
of it. That's what initiated this second round of photographs
being taken in the first place.
40
All right. Now, then in dog number 5, we see for the first
time the letter, "B," "B," indicating?-- "B," is a before
photograph.
Before what?-- Before it's been clipped. Before it's been
bathed. Before it was attended to.
Okay. Now, the next column is headed, "Location." In the
first entry is, "PH1," which indicates-----?-- All right. So
50
where I've written, "PH1," that will refer to this bundle
here; this bigger bundle. And so photograph 1, photograph 2,
photograph 3 and so on. And then where on occasion I've
written Exhibit 22, number 14; so that will be photograph
number 14 of Exhibit 22. And some of them you'll see they'll
be before and after, so some will have a photograph out of
this bundle, and a photograph out of Exhibit 22.
XN: MS MELLIFONT
7-128
WIT: JACKSON T A
60
27082008 D.7 T31/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
All right. Now, the remaining columns, "Bath, clip. Urgent
1
Clip. Parvo," et cetera; what was the source of information
for entering a, "Y," in some of the columns here?-- Yeah, the
veterinary notes that I sat down with Anne Chester and we went
through dog by dog and indicated which animals - so we
basically extracted all that information from the veterinary
notes.
Okay. So, "Bath, clip," indicates what?-- "Bath clip," was
from the shelter manager, every single dog was required
10
bathing and clipping. Clipping to some degree. There were
some dogs that only required feet and face and that was the
babies required feet and face. But other than that, every
single dog required bathing and clipping with the exception
there was no great amount of clipping to be done for the
Labradors I'm led to believe.
All right. Now, "Urgent Clip," is intended to indicate
what?-- Urgent clipping with dogs that were identified - when
the animals were bought in from my understanding there was -
20
there's some that presented as needing clips more urgently
than others. So some where they had large matted amounts of
faeces and - and faecal matter and - and caking hanging off
them, and some that were obviously in distress from it, or
some that, you know, their faces were clouded - covered, they
couldn't see. Or their ears were covered and, you know, their
anal region.
Okay. "Parvo," is intended to indicate I take it if the dog
presented, or was tested with Parvo?-- Was - yes, yes, and -
30
and the Vet can tell you more about that, but there was only
one of those.
All right. Does, "Coxsidia," fall into the same category?--
Coxsidia is the same, those that were tested and tested
positive.
What about hookworm?-- Hookworm are those - what we had to do
with the hookworm one is we - we entered those that were
initially tested and turned up positives, however it became -
40
it got to the stage where - further down the track - as the
days rolled on more and more and more were testing positive to
hookworm so they just treated absolutely every dog for
hookworm.
All right?-- Or for worms.
So the, "Y's," here will indicate the ones that were initially
tested?-- The ones that were actually shown to definitely have
hookworm positive.
50
All right?-- But I'm led - led to believe when we were
compiling this that there were more hookworm positive tests
and they will come from, for instance, a pen, so that you
can't identify which species belongs to which particular dog
out of that pen, so in the end they treated every single dog.
XN: MS MELLIFONT
7-129
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T31/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Okay. The column, "D," is to indicate what?-- Dogs that were
1
in various stages of [indistinct], what would be normal or
acceptable or appropriate weight levels-----
According to who?-- So - according to the Vet.
Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of your
involvement and preparation of this table in respect of these
columns, you essentially ascribe to what the Vet was telling
you?-- That's right. That's right.
10
All right. "Maggots," I take it, is just to intend - indicate
whether maggots were present on the dog?-- That's right.
"Dental," was intended to indicate - what was, "Dental,"
intended to indicate on the table?-- Um, dogs that required
dental work, or that had dental - dental problems.
All right. I mean there - there's still some more that's
ongoing obviously, "Dental's," a bit different to everything
20
else, it doesn't - you know, we prioritised it.
All right?-- So you can't get it all done at once.
"Eyes," intended to indicate-----?-- Dogs that presented on
the day with significant eye issues. There were - we - what I
did - what we did separate out from there were dogs that just
needed their eyes cleaned. Most - well, all of the dogs had -
needed their eyes cleaned, but there were these ones with eyes
the - the, "Yes's," in there indicate that the dogs had more
30
significant health issues with regards to their eyes.
All right?-- Then just needing a clean.
And, "Ears," intended to indicate what?-- Ears tend - well,
indicate the very same thing. All of them needed their ears
cleaned. These are the ones who had significant health issues
with their ears upon presentation after seizure; straight
after seizure.
40
All right. Your Honour, I tender that bundle - bundle of
photographs.
BENCH: Mmm. Exhibit 31.
ADMITTED AND MARKED "EXHIBIT 31"
50
MS MELLIFONT: I also tender the table appreciating that it's
not evidence in the true sense of the word, but rather an aid
to assist your Honour and the parties in distilling-----
BENCH: Mmm.
MS MELLIFONT: -----the remainder of the evidence.
XN: MS MELLIFONT
7-130
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T31/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
1
BENCH: And in view of the provisions and the Act about the
rules of evidence I'm quite prepared to accept as an exhibit.
It'll be Exhibit 32.
ADMITTED AND MARKED "EXHIBIT 32"
10
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you, your Honour. Nothing further, your
Honour, thank you.
BENCH: Before you start, Mrs Robertson, in view of what this
officer has had to say, I should tell you I also prior to
being appointed worked for the Police Service but not as a
police officer for quite some time.
It wasn't until this person informed the Court that she worked
20
for the Police Service, I don't - I-----?-- I haven't worked -
well, I tell - can tell you where I worked if you like?
Well I - I don't - I don't think I've ever met-----?-- No,
I've actually never met you.
Mmm. Mmm. I - well, not as police officer though. I didn't
want you to find out later on that I'd worked for the Police
Service and hadn't told you. No, I don't believe I've ever
met this person at all?-- No.
30
Yes, Mrs Robertson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION:
40
APPLICANT: Ms Jackson, when was this list with all the
numbers and data compiled?-- I compiled this list on - what's
today, Wednesday.
Mmm-hmm?-- It began being compiled Friday, I completed it
Monday and Tuesday.
So, it was this week?-- Yep.
Yes. So, Friday - just bear with me - yes. Last Friday?
50
Now, where did you get the information from as to ID the date
that the dog was ID'd, and it's very important and the
information that you put in this list for each dog; when was
it obtained?-- I don't understand what you're asking; what do
you mean?
XXN: APPLICANT
7-131
WIT: JACKSON T
60
27082008 D.7 T32/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
For example, right, dog number 1. Okay. You've got, "1" and
1
then "Animal ID". You've got an ID number for that dog.
Right. And that's how you keep track of it?-- Right. That's
what I was - I just explained. It's the animal ID number that
issued by the computer-----
Yes?-- -----when the dog is entered into our database.
Yeah. The moment the dog hits the computer. Now, were - were
they entered into the computer all at the same time, or in
10
batches?-- Oh, I wasn't there when that was done.
Well, how did you get the ID to know that?-- It's - it's in
the computer and I have access to the computer system.
Is there any way you can detect when the dog itself - like for
example, the first one, "ID 348214" was entered?-- I'm not
sure.
Is there any way you can find out?-- I'm not sure.
20
In other words, this - this is quite-----?-- But they've got -
they've got a "Date entered" on there and they're - they were
all entered on - the dogs were entered into the shelter on the
9th of the 1st, and some dogs entered on the 11th of the 1st
and one dog entered on the 22nd of the 2nd.
When were they issued these ID numbers-----?-- When they-----
-----or the-----?-- -----get entered into the computer.
30
So - so, the - the ID number is actually the computer number,
when they enter into the computer list-----?-- Mmm.
-----they're given an ID number. Okay. So, the only
identifying tag you have is actually the tag number, because
that was - when were they - they issued to the dog?-- There's
an animal ID number. There's a tag number-----
Yep?-- -----and there's also microchip numbers.
40
The microchip number I am aware-----?-- Mmm.
-----were entered later in the year?-- That's right.
Yeah. About May, at least, I think. The earliest was
May?-- All right. Well-----
And they went in bits and pieces, like depending on if one dog
went to somebody, supposedly died from Parvo-----?-- But
50
depends what you mean by "bits and pieces." I mean 104 dogs,
it's not - it's not possible to enter 104 dogs all at the same
time.
What do you mean?-- I mean-----
They come into the property-----?-- -----there's 104 dogs-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-132
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T32/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
-----on the 9th of January.
1
BENCH: Excuse me. I'm sorry. One at a time.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: Okay. If you ask a question, Ms Robertson-----
APPLICANT: All right.
10
BENCH: -----let the officer answer-----
APPLICANT: Mmm.
BENCH: -----and Ms Jackson, let her ask the questions-----
WITNESS: So, there would - there's a process that needs to be
gone through to enter one dog and then you've entered that
dog, then you need to move on to enter the second dog. So,
they can't all be entered simultaneously.
20
APPLICANT: I'm not interested in the entry in the computer.
I asked you, if you could explain the identification given to
the dog on entry into the RSPCA premises. I'm interested in
my dogs, the day they were seized, on the 9th of
January-----?-- Well, I'm sorry. You probably - I wasn't
there on the 9th of January.
But the system - how does it work; the tag numbers? When
they - I have been told they were tagged on entry. Right. I
30
assume that those tag numbers would be the ones-----?-- Well,
I think you'll see when you look at some of the photographs
that there are tags on the dogs while they're still in the
carpark, so I'd say that's fairly much tagged on entry.
Yes. Except I can't identify-----?-- Beyond that, I can't
tell you what happened on that day because I wasn't there on
that day.
So - so, you don't have anything to do with the issue of the
40
tag numbers?-- No, I - I just explained. I pulled these tag
numbers-----
Mmm?-- -----out of the computer system.
Yes. I understand?-- Okay.
So, what you - what you did was basically, pulled out all the
numbers, all the dogs identified as belonging to me, as per
the computer?-- That's right.
50
You got it to sort it out. "Geraldine's dogs", say for
example, and you got all the numbers?-- Yes.
How did you - how did you go about doing it?-- Well, I made -
I did a query on the computer so it comes up with all the dogs
that are attached to this job.
XXN: APPLICANT
7-133
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T32/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
So, the job actually is identified to this specific case, and
1
all the dogs were to me?-- That's right.
Because it's-----?-- yeah. I could - I mean, yeah. There
were a number of ways I can go about it. There's different
ways that you can do the searches in there with-----
How do you know you've got a complete listing?-- Because there
are no more dogs that are attached to you - and in fact,
there's no more poodles. So, it - it would - I mean, so far
10
as poodles we're - we're not - we don't have any other poodles
or poodle standards or-----
So, like everything else, your list is dependant on - so what
you're doing is actually listing dogs off the computer for the
purpose of whatever, you're to - to - for the treatment given
or the reports required on those dogs, like for example, you
know - all the dogs taken from me. You would - what I'm
trying to establish is, is this a complete list of all the
dogs?-- That is the complete list that I have been able to
20
pull out of the computer and to put together into this
database.
Last Friday, the list to date - in other words, on last
Friday, that's the date you pulled it out. All the dogs that
in my name, or rather, in this case-----?-- Mmm.
-----right, as you put it, that was listed on the computer as
at last Friday; you cannot tell me from this list, or I
cannot tell from this list when those dogs were initially
30
keyed into the computer-----?-- No, you can't tell from this
list when the dogs were keyed into the computer.
Yeah. What-----?-- No.
-----about - I was told that each dog was
identified-----?-- Yeah.
-----and according to your description earlier on-----?-- Mmm.
40
-----right, the identification is when you target, like you
say, the ID number or the tag number?-- Well, all I - look, I
can't tell you about what happened on the 9th. I can tell you
what is our procedure, if you would like some general
information about that. I can't tell you what happened on the
9th of January. I just simply wasn't there.
Mmm. Well, somebody must know how to keep track of all the
dogs taken from Waterford Boarding Kennels?-- I can tell - I
can tell you what we've recently done in another similar
50
situation where we had-----
Yes?-- -----more animals than this-----
Yes?-- -----is that we tagged and immediately that the - the
animals were seized we tagged them-----
XXN: APPLICANT
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WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T32/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Mmm?-- -----but we micro-chipped them as well, so we - we made
1
some advances along the way. I understand that microchipping
is not-----
How long ago was that?-- -----a possibility.
Mmm-hmm?-- It was just a couple of weeks ago.
Why was it a possibility then? Did you understand?
10
BENCH: Well, Ms Robertson, she wasn't there. She - she only
started - started work at the RSPCA in March.
APPLICANT: Oh. Well, maybe I could talk to someone else who
would - because the list they gave me in May - in - in April
or May, is totally alien. I don't own a 12 year old toy and
they gave me a 12 year old male toy?-- I've cross-checked this
list-----
Mmm?-- -----with that list that was given to you-----
20
Mmm?-- -----to ensure that was - I - I did a lot of cross-
checks-----
Yes?-- -----to make sure I had a complete list-----
Mmm?-- -----and an accurate list.
As far as the records go, they were complete and accurate?-- I
cross-checked with the computer records.
30
Yes?-- I cross-checked with the - the shelter make records.
I can see that?-- I cross-checked with the records that were
given to you. I've - I've done a lot of cross-checking-----
Yes. The only-----?-- -----to try and make sure this is-----
-----thing given to me-----?-- -----as complete and accurate
as possible.
40
right?-- So, this - these numbers here unless I have made an -
a manual error, but these numbers here are exactly the same as
the ones that were given to you on the list in April or
May-----
Yes-----?-- -----the list that you're referring to.
-----which was a list of jibberish really-----?-- Well,
I'm-----
50
-----because there was a lot of dogs that are totally alien to
me and they were in fact a lot of them-----?-- Well, what I
can probably explain to you-----
Mmm?-- -----is when you start talking about ages and specific
ages-----
XXN: APPLICANT
7-135
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T32/GP(MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
Mmm?-- -----in our computer system, is that firstly, you've
1
got a couple of things that go on. Firstly, dogs - if dogs -
we don't know absolute details about when dogs are born. Vets
or animal attendants may have to make an educated - you
know-----
BENCH: Assessment?-- -----assessment of what age the dog
would be, and there is not often a lot of difference between -
and especially when you're talking standard and toy poodles,
and not a lot of difference between a six month old or a nine
10
month old, or there may - it may be very easy and there's also
not a lot of categories to put them in in the computer.
Another thing that happens in this database is that -
unfortunately is that when some dates are - some ages update
automatically and some require manual updating. So, they only
get updated when the dog comes back in for a re-check from a
foster home. So, unless there's a trigger that's put in
there, to automatically age the dog, when you pull out a
query, and - and bearing in mind, these are queries that are
relatively recent - like we don't - we don't have a long
20
history of - of doing these kinds of large queries when they -
when we pull out that information, some of the anomalies are
that a dog may still be listed at the same age that it was
when it came in and that age may not be entirely accurate
because that would have been an assessment made by the
vet-----
Mmm?-- -----at the time that the dog came in.
Mmm?-- So, it may - you know - may have actually been six
30
months old instead of four months old and - and so then it's
still listed as four months and it's actually-----
Eighteen?-- -----eighteen.
Mmm. All right?-- Yes.
I follow that?-- So, unfortunately, the listings - the ages
that you're looking at in that list that you got - you know
whilst you may have some idea of the dogs' ages-----
40
APPLICANT: Mmm?-- -----those - that's the problem with the
listing of the ages.
Yes?-- They're categorised generally also. That's another
thing that might help you, is they're categorised into
"Senior", and - and a lot of the - a lot of the aging had to
be done according to - you know - lots of different techniques
that they use. So, "Senior, Juvenile, Puppy"-----
50
I - I believe the system is deliberately set to - to be
general. There are colours, your Honour. The - the - the -
the dogs come in different colours as in brown, a real brown,
as in red, like a - like a red brown, a brilliant red head,
you know - and as in apricot, and orange or a creamy orange,
as in black, jet black like your gown, and there are standards
which go to the - up to 40 kilo in weight full grown and the
puppies born in the - a standard poodle pup born weighs about
XXN: APPLICANT
7-136
WIT: JACKSON T A
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27082008 D.7 T33/HS (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
up to about - could be about 900 grams. A toy is only 50
1
grams. There's a lot of difference in size. I only have toys
and standards. There's no way one could tell - can mistake
them, for one or the other. And when I got the list in April,
most of them were puppies and I've never owned so many puppies
in my life.
BENCH: And I could understand your concern about something
like that but you've got something like, Exhibit-----
10
APPLICANT: Most of the dogs-----
BENCH: -----31, where there's photographs of dogs which-----
APPLICANT: There's a lot of them.
BENCH: -----go some way to identifying the dogs.
APPLICANT: There's a lot of them that are not identified here
- like the red standards, they are worth $58,000 each and
20
there was 14 of them and there's not one of these here.
They've got puppies that are red and in the description here,
which says poodles' standard - it says nothing; they are
white, brown, cream, apricot, red, black - six colours, they
could have picked it. And to me, that is a fraudulent matter
of recording. It's done deliberately - toy poodle. And when
I went and try identify separately, because I've got all the
different lists that I make of my dogs and I couldn't identify
them. Because I don't have an apricot male that's nine years
old, a toy. There's a lot of difference between an - a
30
senior, you know, dog who's nine, 10 years old compared to my
oldest stud dog is about five, in a toy.
BENCH: All right.
APPLICANT: There's a lot of difference. That's double the
age, no matter how young he might look. I mean, she-----
BENCH: Well, I understand that and that may be a legitimate
complaint-----
40
APPLICANT: So that, that was-----
BENCH: -----about the recording mechanisms at the RSPCA.
APPLICANT: So I was just trying to determine, and obviously
as Miss Jackson has explained, its - she can only - she's
working and getting a record compiled which the system does
not provide to be accurate. It's not her fault?-- Can I just
explain here. I wanted to keep it to one page and make it
50
succinct so that we could use it as a hand reference tool and
had I included colour in there, when there's obvious colour on
the photographs - I just thought that that colour on the
photographs would suffice.
BENCH: I understand. And I think what Mrs Robertson's saying
is, you've taken the records from the computer and put it onto
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a spreadsheet. Would that be a fair-----?-- That's right,
1
that's exactly what I've done.
BENCH: All right. Mrs Robertson, do you want to continue?
APPLICANT: Yes. She couldn't tell me when the list was
compiled. Miss Jackson, I believe you were responsible for
transporting the records from RSPCA that were seized on the
22nd of February?-- That's right.
10
From RSPCA to-----?-- Clayton Utz.
Yes?-- Yep.
When did that happen?-- That happened, it's in my affidavit,
on the 3rd of April.
On the 3rd of April? Now, could you - did you have access -
who had access to the property in storage at RSPCA?-- Oh, I'd
only just arrived then so I didn't have access. I don't know
20
who did. I know that Lawrie Stageman was able to let me in.
And could you explain-----?-- Its - I can - yeah, okay, go on.
Sorry?-- No, it's okay.
Perhaps if you could explain how you sort of, got round to
transporting and the procedure - like, you know, you access
the records, obviously?-- Yeah. I was given access to the
locked room and I took the piles of evidence with the tags on
30
and I took them into my ute and I drove into Clayton Utz,
where somebody met me down there with a big trolley - I think
in the Clayton Utz car park - and we went into the lift and up
to Clayton Utz and put them all into the - their evidence
room.
Did anyone help you?-- Jane Barr was with me on that day.
Who is Jane Barr?-- She works in our office, she's our quality
assurance officer.
40
So the two of you, sort of, loaded up the stuff and drove down
to the lawyers' office, to Clayton Utz?-- Yeah, I backed my
ute up. Because it was dirty, filthy and all over the place,
so I had to pick it - I had to grab it all and Jane had to
grab some with me, and we walked out and put it into the back
of the ute.
And you just transported it and that was it?-- That's it.
50
You made sure that everything went or you checked
and-----?-- Yeah.
Did you know how much - how much was it when you took it down
there?-- How much-----?
How much - how big a load, in your ute?-- It was probably
spread out - like there was the computer-----
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It was all dusty, because everything was dusty, I guess?-- The
1
computer box, there was a couple of plastic bags, there was
big silver box with papers hanging out of it and a couple of
little box, little plastic boxes with old filing cards in it.
You know, if you spread it all out flat, it probably took up a
third of the back of my ute, a quarter to a third of the back
of my ute. I remember it 'cause I had to pack my stuff up to
make sure it didn't slide all over the place. So I had to
pack - so it certainly wasn't enough to fill up the back of my
ute, it wasn't even enough to fill up half, probably about a
10
quarter.
BENCH: Do you have a cover on the utility?-- Yeah.
So it's enclosed?-- Absolutely, yeah. Enclosed and locked.
APPLICANT: In your opinion, in an average box, say about the
size of this - can you see the size of this?-- Yeah, I can see
the size.
20
Sort of - perhaps, you know, a bit - as high as that, sort of
rectangular. How many boxes, do you think, those records
would have taken up? Roughly?
BENCH: Well, why don't we do it this way, Mrs Robertson?
There's a box, it's a photocopying box.
APPLICANT: I think - twice the box - two boxes. Each box,
twice the length and the width? Not like that, the other way
round perhaps?-- No, I think she means, the flat sides to each
30
other.
Side by side. Yeah, yeah, that will do, yes. Well, or, you
know, just-----?-- I know what you mean.
-----about that volume, about that volume?-- You mean the long
ends to each other, yes.
How many boxes do you think that would take, roughly?-- Am I
putting the computer in there as well and the big silver box?
40
No, no, no computer, just the documents?-- And what about the
little plastic boxes, am I putting those in there or am I just
putting the plastic bags that were full of documents?
Just the documents, no boxes, just the documents?-- Probably,
look it's hard to say, probably two - two of them. 'Cause,
look, see, am I putting the expander file in there?
Well, I would say, you know, I would squish it in, I suppose
50
the expander file will fit in one box?-- I mean, I don't know,
you know-----
Roughly, roughly, you don't have to be very accurate, just a
rule of thumb?-- Well, I'd like to be accurate because if I'm
not putting the computer box in and if I'm not putting the
expander file in and if I'm not putting-----
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Not putting the metal box in, obviously?-- -----and I'm not
1
putting the metal box in and I'm not putting the box in that's
containing the cards - the briefcase, I'm not putting in.
There was the envelope, I'll put the envelope of papers in.
One briefcase only?-- One briefcase only.
The black one?-- So there's - that wouldn't even fill up a box
yet but would probably finish up filling one box, if we're not
putting the plastic containers in? That might finish up -
10
look, you might make two boxes.
Two boxes?-- Yeah, you might make two boxes. Depends how much
you squash it down.
Are you certain?-- Because there really wasn't a lot of - you
know, everything was bundled up together - most of it, like
you know, was in containers of its own.
Two boxes only, you think?-- Oh, if that, yep. Because, well
20
it depends-----
If that?-- -----you know, you've got this plastic bag here and
this plastic here are going to make up the bulk of it.
Hmm?-- So, yeah, and then a couple of envelopes.
Okay, I think-----?-- I mean we were easily able to take it
all up in one load from the car park at Clayton Utz.
30
40
50
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27082008 D.7 T34/MM (MKY) M/T BRIS33 (Strofield, Magistrate)
I - would you remember, how many times have you been to see
1
Annette Barrond?-- Once.
Only once. And that was - that was when?-- Oh, I'm not sure,
I'd have to look up my records, but-----
Mmm?-- -----I've been once.
You've been once. And did you go with anyone?-- I went with
Daniel Young.
10
Mmm-hmm. I think it was the 18 of April?-- That would be
right.
Mmm?-- I'd probably agree with around about that time, it was
soon after I began work at the RSPCA, it was - I was in
basically a train in phase so that's why I went out with
Daniel.
Mmm. What did Annette Barrond say to you that day when you
20
went to see her?-- Do you mean specifically in relation to
you, or do you mean in - in general about everything.
No. No. No. In general your day; you went there to see
her?-- Oh, we were there for quite a while-----
Mmm?-- -----so she said lots and lots of things to us.
Why did you go there?-- Because we had received a complaint
about the condition of her dogs; about the condition that she
30
was keeping her dogs in.
Have you verified the complaints that it was genuine; did
you-----?-- We verified - we verified - we acted on the
complaint the same way we act on any complaint.
So in other words, without verification?-- Well, what sort of
verification are you talking about?
Well, I believe that at the RSPCA-----?-- We have a
40
verification system that - that the call centre people -
they're very well trained at taking these complaints, so
there's a verification system that they have to go through
before they make the complaint into a complaint.
I have rung the RSPCA to make a complaint-----?-- Mmm-hmm.
-----about him, and they just took it. They didn't bother to
verify whether I was genuine-----?-- But that's what the
investigations about.
50
How could he be - how could - I mean it could be some - I
could be a competitor-----?-- We spend most of our time going
to complaints-----
Running around places to see complaints; maybe they're not
genuine, you're wasting time. If there's-----?-- Well-----
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Somebody might not have a - so, anyway-----?-- I - I don't
1
know exactly what you mean, that's - that's what the
investigation is, you know, we receive a complaint - it's
exactly the same way that it used to work in the police. You
receive a complaint and you begin your investigation, and part
of your investigation may be verifying that complaint.
Verifying where it came from. Verifying whether-----
Yes?-- -----the complaint was of substance.
10
No, verify the complaint is legitimate. Like, if I had a
valid complaint to make-----?-- Well, how do you do that? I
understand how you would do that-----
Well, it's very simple?-- -----before you walk out the door,
I-----
Well, it's very simple, if I've got a complaint and ring you
up about it-----?-- Mmm.
20
-----instead of going 500 miles to see me, you would - to see
him for example-----?-- Yeah.
-----I give you an address, I mean you would ring me firstly
on the phone number that I give you. You say, "Can I get in
touch with you? Ring back to you to confirm later?" And if I
said, "No," you'd want to know why?-- Well, and then we
do-----
Immediately it should ring the bell shouldn't it?-- And that -
30
that process if followed.
Mmm?-- That process is followed all during the taking of the
complaint at the call centre.
How did you know?-- How did I know what?
Yes, that the process is followed as you said?-- Because
that's the process that the call centre have to go through
before they can submit jobs to us for us to attend.
40
Well, there was one complaint made about me and there was no
contact number and what not-----?-- That's - that's right.
-----unknown-----?-- And that's right, and people are told at
the time that if they don't give their name and address-----
Mmm?-- -----that - that - that they may not be able to - we
may not be able to place significant weight on that complaint,
or we may not be able to act on it immediately.
50
"Act on it immediately," see that's the key word, your Honour,
"Act on it immediately." In other words, they do not verify
whether it's a genuine complaint, or one of their own staff
ringing up because they've got an axe to grind, or it's a
competitor. I mean, anybody could ring up and - like I said -
I could ring them up and pretend to be your neighbour and say
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that your dog is eating the other dog, and RSPCA will come and
1
investigate without verification.
BENCH: Is - is this questioning for the purposes of
submitting that - the complaint which Lawrie Stageman acted on
what is - was a fictitious-----
APPLICANT: Well that - I mean - done that earlier on, I've
made the - the question - I've asked the question. In this
case, I've asked Ms Jackson-----
10
BENCH: Well, I'm just trying to get the - the relationship
between the-----
APPLICANT: She had a complaint-----
BENCH: Mmm. Mmm.
APPLICANT: -----about Annette Barrond.
20
BENCH: And she investigated that, is that right?
APPLICANT: Yes. And coincidentally it was received-----
BENCH: Well see, that's what I'm trying to work out, what's
the relevance to the complaint against Mrs Barrond to-----
APPLICANT: Ms Barrond-----
BENCH: -----to the complaint that Mr Stageman acted on
30
against you?
APPLICANT: Well, the only similarity is there were both
complaints made to RSPCA and Mrs Barrond did a Stat Dec - a
Statutory Declaration to support my - my appeal to the DPI and
that document was lodged with the DPI on the 28 of March.
And there was another Statutory Declaration done by somebody
else and there were three lodged. And three people have been
harassed by either members of the RSPCA, or the Poodle
40
Club-----
BENCH: Right.
APPLICANT: -----that was affiliated with the RSPCA in - in my
problems.
BENCH: Okay. See what - what your proposition to Ms Jackson
is that she was harassing Ms Barrond?
50
APPLICANT: Well, I'm not sure, I'm asking her was-----
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: -----was that complaint legitimate. Did she check
and verify? And she said that - she just said that it wasn't
for her to verify more or less, and that the RSPCA system of
passing on the jobs-----
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1
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: -----the task to the inspectors-----
BENCH: Mmm.
APPLICANT: -----should have done the verification and she
assumed that as normal, it would have been in the normal
course of that duty and be - establish earlier that they don't
10
do that.
In other words, I can make a fictitious complaint about you,
and you will get harassed.
I mean - you know, I could be a nut case, you know, and I say,
"Gee, you know that man eats - eats - he goes out and buy a
puppy and eats it every night for dinner.
BENCH: All right. So, your question to Ms Jackson is for the
20
purpose of - I'm just trying to get this clear.
APPLICANT: Yes.
BENCH: What's the purpose of the questions about Ms - Ms
Barron to Ms Jackson?
APPLICANT: What instigated the - the - her and Daniel Young
to go and see Annette Barrond on the 18-----
30
BENCH: Okay.
APPLICANT: -----of April because it happened to be-----
BENCH: She - she said a complaint, and through your
questioning she said there was no - she didn't do any
verification herself other than the information that she
received through the call centre; is that a fair summary of
your evidence?-- Yeah. It's - it's not - it's just not
possible to - to-----
40
All right?-- I don't know where you would draw the line with
verification. It's very similar as I was saying-----
APPLICANT: There used to.
WITNESS: -----to phone in the police. If you phone the
police and - to make a complaint, it's a very similar process.
The complaint is taken and it's passed on for investigation.
50
APPLICANT: Twenty years ago RSPCA would only investigate on -
on - they would verify the complainant. Like for example, if
I'm complaining about you, I would have to leave my number
with you. Say you're diary's busy, and you would phone me to
confirm that I'm a genuine complainant.
BENCH: Mmm.
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APPLICANT: Right. I'm not just somebody that came out of -
1
pluck, out of the air, and that's what they used to do 20
years ago and maybe a bit later after that?-- All right. I
wasn't there then.
Yes?-- I - I can tell you that-----
But that would be logical?-- -----phoning the complainant -
well, phoning the complainant would be-----
10
Look, more importantly?-- -----a logical-----
MS MELLIFONT: Sorry, let - sorry, this witness-----
APPLICANT: Yes.
MS MELLIFONT: -----should be entitled to answer.
WITNESS: Phoning the complainant would be a - a logical part
of the investigation. So, when - when I talk about
20
investigation, there's a lot can be done before we walk out of
the office. Before we put foot - foot to the floor, so
phoning the complainant is one thing that can be done.
Verifying, you know, what they've told you. Getting further
particulars, further details. You know, checking out with
other authorities. We may be able to - to sort something out
there. Making inquiries as - with Vets as to whether or - if
that's a relevant issue, and then we need to attend because we
need to attend to assess whether or not the complaint is
actually grounded.
30
APPLICANT: All right. So you went to see Annette
Barrond?-- That's right.
Now, what did - you said to her about the - what did she say
to you, or you said to her, both-----?-- Look, I-----
-----whichever you want to start with; yes?-- We-----
BENCH: Before you answer, Ms Jackson; Ms Robertson, how long
40
do you think you might be because we'll need to let - I think
we might finish up at 6?
APPLICANT: Yes, that's fine.
BENCH: All right.
APPLICANT: Whatever. What do you want to start with
first?-- We went along to Mrs Barrond's place-----
50
Mmm-hmm?-- -----and she let us in the gate.
Mmm-hmm?-- And we told her what the complaint was.
Mmm-hmm?--She was more than happy to help us out, and to deal
with this.
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The complaint was about her dogs, or about-----?-- Well, we
1
spoke to Mrs Barrond about that and the complaint was about -
concerns that we had for the welfare of her dogs.
Mmm. Mmm?-- She took us on basically a guided tour of her -
we pointed out some areas that we had some concerns; she was
quite willing to work with us in those areas, they were minor
concerns. A couple of little - from memory, a couple of
little - remember I wasn't the primary, I was there with
Daniel, but a couple of little minor eye issues or ear issues
10
from memory, I think she was treating one at a Vet. Living
conditions were the main concern. I remember there were a
couple of Maremmas and they were quite dirty. Their eyes were
gunky and they were living in - you know, very high grass,
which grass see in dogs eyes can cause difficulty. She had a
cow there, I remember that, I don't think we had any concerns
about that. she had some cats. We had some quite serious
concerns about the living conditions of the cats and the - and
where they were living. She assured us that they were only
there - they were going to be re-homed within the next couple
20
of weeks.
30
40
50
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Excuse me. I think if we stick to what was discussed about
1
like-----?-- Oh, okay.
-----her being a witness to this case and you know -
what-----?-- Well, I-----
-----what she said?-- -----had an idea that she was a witness
to this case, and - and - when I went there. She was the one
who bought it up. We were talking to her at the end about the
way - you know - what we would like to see and how we would
10
like to - we - we would have liked to have seen that she had
her dogs in pens or - you know - running free. So, it was
quite obvious to us that the dogs received adequate release.
They were living on - in nice grassy areas in pens. She was
rotating the pens by the looks of it because there were a
couple there that had no dogs in them. Generally speaking,
they were fairly clean. We would-----
Ms Jackson, what - what - just forget about Annette's dogs.
What did she say about the case and she said that you - you
20
said something and you said that she said something regarding
this-----?-- Okay.
-----case, regarding me, my dogs, the poodles, and she as a
witness?-- I'm getting to that.
Mmm?-- So, we were - we were talking to her about the way she
keeps her dogs and she said - she said or made a comment along
the lines of, "No. I don't - you know - I don't keep my dogs
locked - locked up in kennels. No, my dogs are always kept
30
out like this" and she was telling us - you know what a good
keeper of dogs she was and - and we were - it was a
conversation along those lines and then she said - she said,
"You won't find something here" or "You - you won't see - I
don't do it here like - like those other poodles" and we said,
"What other" and she said, "You know, the other poodles - the
poodles at Geraldine Robertson's" and I said, "Do you know
Geraldine?" She said, "Oh, yes. I used to." She said, "I
haven't seen her for ages." She said that was - she said, "It
was disgusting. It was - it was appalling" or "disgusting" or
40
something. She said, "Oh that was terrible. It was terrible"
and I said, "Oh, okay." I said - and she said that she hadn't
been there for a long time. She said, "Oh, years ago I used
to help her clip" or "I used to go there and help out or work
for her" and I said - oh, she was - she said something. She
said, "Oh look" she said - I - I said - she said, "Oh, she was
okay back then" or something about, "She was okay back then.
She was - back then, she didn't have as many dogs" she said,
"and I think that now it's just become all about the money"
but she was basically - the - the way she was presenting it
50
was to say, she was doing things the way it should be done and
she was comparing herself to the way it shouldn't be done by
talking about you - Mrs Robertson.
Is that all she said?-- Oh well-----
It wasn't-----
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BENCH: About these proceedings, which were-----?-- Yeah.
1
She-----
-----not these proceedings?-- -----she certainly didn't - she
didn't let us know that she had given an affidavit. In fact,
it was made clear to me from her that she was distanced from
you. She was distancing herself from you. She - she was
saying that she hadn't seen you for a long time and that she -
she used to go a long time ago and help you out.
10
APPLICANT: Were you aware that Daniel Young was one of the
Inspectors that came and - and - when the warrant was served
on the 22nd of February?-- Was I aware of it now or was I back
then?
Was you - were you aware of it in-----?-- I'm not sure whether
I would have been aware of it back then. I can't tell you for
- I can't tell you. I can't remember when exactly I picked up
this case. I started here - started at the RSPCA the day
after the Easter break. Yes, the day after the Easter break
20
and I fairly - it would - it wouldn't have - only been a
couple of weeks later I guess that I started picking up the
poodle case.
Mmm. Your Honour, it's 6 p.m..
BENCH: Yes. All right. We'll-----
WITNESS: Well, I was certainly on it by the 3rd of April and
when did you say I went to-----
30
APPLICANT: 18th of April-----?-- Yeah. But see, I couldn't
tell you exactly-----
-----I think?-- -----how - I'm sorry. I couldn't tell you
exactly how much I knew about it at that stage.
BENCH: Do you have any - do you have more questions for Ms
Jackson?
40
APPLICANT: Yes, I think it'd be a bit too long-----
BENCH: All right.
APPLICANT: -----for the rest of today.
BENCH: We'll come back tomorrow then, in view of the hour.
Adjourn till tomorrow, please. We're back in this Court.
APPLICANT: Thank you.
50
THE COURT ADJOURNED
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