TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS













MAGISTRATES COURT

STROFIELD, Magistrate


MAG-6213/08

GERALDINE FOOI FONG ROBERTSON
Appellant


and

DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRIES AND
First Respondent
FISHERIES



and



ROYAL SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF
Second Respondent
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS



BRISBANE

..DATE 08/08/2008


..DAY 2




*********** Transcription deletions Pages 22, see also page 20
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categories. You may wish to seek legal advice before giving others access to the details of any person named in these proceedings.

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THE COURT RESUMED
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ANNETTE KATHERINE BARRELL, CONTINUING:



BENCH: Sorry about the change of venue. I learnt at about 3
minutes to 9 that it was required - the other Court was
10
required for criminal purposes.

MS MELLIFONT: Thank you, your Honour.

BENCH: Right. Now, I understand we have a video ready to
start?

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour.

BENCH: All right. Okay.
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TAPE PLAYED



APPELLANT: Could we stop the video at some point in time if
we-----

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BENCH: Yes. If you just tell - tell me when you want it
stopped I'll arrange for it to be-----

APPELLANT: Thank you.

BENCH: Do you want to ask questions about a particular part
of the video, do you?

APPELLANT: Yes.

40
BENCH: All right. That's fine.



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



BENCH: Yes, Mrs Robertson?

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APPELLANT: Where's the photo? Disappeared?

BENCH: Do you want - you want-----

APPELLANT: Yes.





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TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
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BENCH: Stop it. Just freeze it there.

APPELLANT: Thank you.

MS MELLIFONT: Could I just record for the record, 11.21.46 on
the video.
10

BENCH: I'm just going to-----

APPELLANT: Back a bit.

MS MELLIFONT: I'm sorry.

BENCH: No, you're fine. Yes, Mrs Robertson?

APPELLANT: Yes, just back a bit please. Further back.
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That's it, that's it. Yep. Please.

BENCH: Yes. Yes. That's 11.21.44, that's the - where you
wanted it stopped, Mrs Robertson?

APPELLANT: Yes, please.

BENCH: All right.


30

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF:



APPELLANT: Annette, the dog - the apricot dog-----?-- Yeah,
standing up at the wire.

Yes?-- Yep. With all the - the felting?

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Yes?-- Well, the poodle-----

Yes. When you were coming, you know, it was a list of dogs we
discussed?-- Yep.

About clipping?-- Yeah. I know we had some work to do. That
coat quite likely could have been long but not in such a state
it looks awful. I can see how everyone would be upset, but
that could have been caused by the - all the rain and rolling
on it which causes felting. And I'm sure I've never seen
50
anything like that at Geraldine's before. Nothing like that.
Might have needed clipping, but the extreme circumstances of
all the rain I'm sure contributed to making it look a lot
worse.

Is the dog - is the dog greatly troubled by that?-- I don't
think-----


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MS MELLIFONT: Sorry, your Honour, this witness can't say
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whether the dog is troubled by that.

BENCH: No, of course not.

APPELLANT: Could I - your Honour, could I show her some
photos of dogs in long coats? They look matted, but they're
what they call corded poodles. Some people like to keep them
and they're actually recognised as such. Even for showing.

10
BENCH: Where are the photos from?

APPELLANT: Sorry?

BENCH: Where are they from?

APPELLANT: I downloaded them from the net last night.

BENCH: All right.

20
APPELLANT: Because they do show them as corded poodles.

MS MELLIFONT: Coded?

BENCH: Corded?

APPELLANT: Corded. Cord, as in cord.

MS MELLIFONT: Oh, cord.

30
APPELLANT: And here's some more.

BENCH: Yes, you can show the photos and ask for her to
comment about it.

WITNESS: Well, these have got long coast and they're a bit
neater and tidier, but they haven't been wet probably. And
the dogs live like that. Bit like Maremma sheep dogs, when
they live in the wild they actually have a coat the same as
the poodle and they have bits hanging off them, felting. And
40
a woman in America, even when she has them on her farm in
America, she doesn't clip them or remove the wads of fur.
That's how she likes to leave them because it's a natural way.
In Italy where they've lived for 2,000 years.

BENCH: Are you suggesting that's the natural way for these
dogs?-- No, it's not, but that isn't going to bother the dog
having the coat like that.

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, I really do need to object to this
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line of evidence. Just looking at the photographs now, they
seem to be of a particular type of poodle. I think perhaps
your Honour should - should - should look at what these
photographs are. It seems to be irrelevant. In the absence
of evidence that this particular poodle in the picture happens
to be the same type of poodle in these photographs, together
with some expert evidence, it's just - it's just not relevant
and won't assist you in your process.

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BENCH: Well I think the answer to my question is they've
solved it all for me that not suggesting these animals are in
the wild as by comparison to the - the American experience of
- I can't see the relevance of-----

APPELLANT: These are not the American experience, these are
actually - this is actually I think an Australian dog based in
Victoria.

10
BENCH: What's the purpose of your questioning about these
photos, Mr Robertson?

APPELLANT: Some of the - the long coats are not - some people
is fashionable, is the style, the traditional hunting style of
a poodle. They were hunters-----

BENCH: Right.

APPELLANT: -----and they are-----
20

BENCH: What has that got to do with this photo of this dog?

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: Is this a hunting dog? Is this a dog in the wild?

APPELLANT: These dogs are not in the wild.

BENCH: No, no, answer my question, is this-----
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APPELLANT: No.

BENCH: -----a hunting dog?

APPELLANT: He's not a dog in the wild.

BENCH: Is this a dog in the wild?

APPELLANT: No. These dogs are not in the wild either, these
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are in the show ring. That's traditional show clip to show
the traditional breed - what the breed - the purpose of the
breed. They are hunters. They are used for retrievers and
it's quite common for them to have over - what we call over
coats - long - long coats - long woolly coats. And this is
actually a show ring - a show dog. It is recognised in the
Australian Canine Council regulations that you can show corded
poodles. What they mean by "corded" is it's like in dread
locks.

50
BENCH: Are you suggesting that's a corded poodle?

APPELLANT: No, it's - it's a term-----

BENCH: Well what's the - what's the relevance of asking
questions-----


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APPELLANT: The relevance is the dog would be comfortable even
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when they are corded. If they're - if they're over matted
it's not - it's not like - it wouldn't make the dog sick. You
see, you can show a dog - like, most of the dogs that are in
the show ring, they're all brushed up and like we wash them
and brush them and remove all the matts and it's one ball of
fluff, right. In the traditional hunting trim, what they call
a lion trim, like this, or a continental, the lion will have
covering on the legs. The continental, the legs are shaved
off, right, to accentuate where the legs are, and the body is
10
sort of left in the rough like a massive coat, a heavy coat,
right. In - in the current show, like a normal show is - they
are allowed in the agreed standard a corded poodle.

BENCH: All right.



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30
40
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APPELLANT: They are the same dog but different clothes; it's
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like us wearing a t-shirt or wearing a suit.

BENCH: All right. Well, I've heard Ms Barrell say that the
dog might not be distressed by that. That's as far as I'll
allow it to go.

APPELLANT: That's what I'm trying to say that they are not
necessarily distressed by the mere fact that they are over-
coated.
10

BENCH: Well, that's - that's what I've heard this witness
say.

APPELLANT: Thank you.

BENCH: Move on.

APPELLANT: Yes. Thank you, your Honour, I think-----

20
BENCH: Well, do you want to - is there anything else you want
to ask about what's on the video?

APPELLANT: Oh, yes, the video, yes.



TAPE PLAYED


30

APPELLANT: Could we go back to the poodles please? Your
Honour, I have some photos here as well to show a dog - not
one of my poodles, but it belongs to a client of mine, that
actually we were talking about the poodles and she says this
what the dogs look like. This is when it fell in the pool.
There's some photos here as well taken when it was - it fell
into the pool and it looked pretty miserable and after they
were dry, about an hour later, that's what they look like.
And some of these photos here, that was from Mrs Watt
40
yesterday, because she had one poodle and we were talking
about it because she said to me, "Oh, they look" - the dogs
had a good time, went in - fell into the pool and she took
some photos - and I said, "Why don't you take some photos for
me?" and she did and these are - can I pass it around?

BENCH: Is that her dog? Is that Mrs Watts' dog.

APPELLANT: Yes, but this to illustrate that a poodle, when
they dry they look what we call civilised and quite
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presentable, but when they're wet they look be-ragged and
quite a mess. It depends on how you show them. It's a pure
wool coat, very dense wool coat and this to illustrate that
this - this dog is definitely not neglected; it's the only dog
she own, Mrs Watts.

BENCH: Yes, but that's - that's not a dog that is portrayed
in any of these videos here is it?

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APPELLANT: Yes, I'm just portraying that how it looks.

BENCH: That dog doesn't appear on that video.

APPELLANT: No, your Honour.

BENCH: That dog wasn't seized?

APPELLANT: Oh, no.
10

BENCH: No, all right.

APPELLANT: But this is to illustrate that when the dogs were
taken on the 9th of January we had four days of continuous
rain and it rained all night that night because I didn't
sleep, I was up waiting for two litters to be born and the
dogs would have been - like, they were in and out between the
showers so they would have looked similar to this sort of
appearance when they were taken. That's why they look so
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woeful and-----

BENCH: Well, I've heard-----

APPELLANT: On a normal day-----

BENCH: Well, I've heard what's been said about the rain and
I've read what's been said about the rain. I think we'll move
on. Can you go back to where the video was?

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TAPE PLAYED



APPELLANT: Please pause.



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TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



BENCH: Go back now. Go back a bit. No, sorry back, not
forward. Yeah, that - yep good. Stop. Go forward from here
I think-----



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TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



BENCH: Is that where you wanted it stopped, Mrs Robertson?

APPELLANT: Yes, please. Annette, looking at that, you've
seen the kennels on many occasions; have you ever seen it,

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even on some rain occasions over the years have you ever seen
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it that wet?-- I - no, I have never seen your kennels look
anything like that, never. Not once. It is - it does appear
very, very shocking. I'm sure it would upset a lot of people
to see them like that 'cause I've never seen it like that and
I've been there many times, but extreme weather, flash
flooding. I don't doubt it.

I think if we move on a little bit we might be able to see a
closer up of the kennel, I think, later on.
10



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



APPELLANT: Yep, just hold on please. Can you see the flood
with the water line? Were the kennels like that stained
before, like have you ever seen them?-- No, no. No, I can't
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see what it is. It looks like leaves, it could be-----

No, on - near the wall?-- What's that?

The water line, you know, where the water came up to?-- Well,
there's all leaves around the mesh.

Was there always a stain mark on the wall? Sorry?-- There's
all, like, things caught up against the mesh. That's where
the water's washed it there when it's flooded.
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Well, I cleared it actually to make the - let the - help the
water flow out?-- Well, there's - on the right-hand side
there's a collection-----

BENCH: Did you go there when it was in flood?-- No, no.

I don't know how you can say that then.

APPELLANT: But you've been there when it's raining?-- No, but
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I - I can see by the video.

Over the 10 years I think I remember-----?-- Oh, I've been
there in wet weather, yeah.

But never that bad?-- No.

BENCH: Where do you say the flood line is that's showing up
on the video?

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APPELLANT: On the wall you can see the marks. It's hard to
see. I think further on we might be able to see?-- Oh, you
mean up the brick wall?

Yes.

BENCH: On the block wall?-- Right, yeah.


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APPELLANT: The brick wall?-- Yep. There are stains there.
1

Not away from the fence. I think towards the end of this
video, the end of this video.



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


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APPELLANT: See, it was still wet that morning. I think later
on in the afternoon near the exit part, near the end of this
video, because they were there the whole day. Keep going,
just keep going.



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED

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APPELLANT: See, what water was still in the drain.
[Indistinct].



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


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APPELLANT: Here. Please stop. Now, this is in the afternoon
- this was taken in the afternoon of the same day because it
stopped raining during the day. It rained all night on and
off, heavily. Could we go backwards a bit please. No, just
back to where the kennels were.



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
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APPELLANT: Could you please stop. Pause. Yes. This is
where you can see the water line. Over a little bit, just a
little bit. A little bit more. That's it, that's it. I
think this is clearer.

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, can I - I'm sorry to interrupt
again. This really is - this really is evidence that this
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witness can't speak to. She wasn't there at the time. She
can't say what she observed in terms of floods. Now, if Ms
Robertson wishes to give evidence about what's depicted in the
video vis-à-vis her own experience she can do that when she
gets into the box to give her evidence. My submission is that
we're really spending time with this witness on this topic
when we shouldn't be, respectfully.


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BENCH: Have you seen this video?-- I haven't seen this one,
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no.

Well, there's not much point asking questions about things
that she hasn't seen?-- I've seen another one similar, but it
wasn't quite as detailed - didn't have as much in it.

APPELLANT: I think it's the same one that you saw.

BENCH: Well, no, if she hasn't seen this, she hasn't seen
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this?-- The one I saw was-----

APPELLANT: Yes, but it was about this-----?-- -----shorter
with smaller pieces in it, not as much information.

BENCH: All right. Have you seen the - did you see the video
of the kennels in this - in this condition?-- I've seen little
bits of it, but not as much as what this one has. This one's
obviously a lot longer than the one I saw with a lot more
pictures in it.
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Right. What are wanting to ask her about this part of the
video?

APPELLANT: It's just the water line, that's all. I thought
you could see it better because when it was wet - she hasn't
seen it-----

BENCH: Well, how can she give evidence about that if she
hasn't seen it, Mrs Robertson?
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APPELLANT: Yes, your Honour, I agree. Okay.

BENCH: Nothing else?

APPELLANT: No, your Honour, thank you.



CROSS-EXAMINATION:
40



MS MELLIFONT: Ms Barrell, I think you said you're currently
unemployed?-- I'm retired.

You're retired, thank you. May I ask how old you are?-- 56.

Thank you. Do you run a kennel from your property?-- I don't
call it a kennel.
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Okay. What do you call it?-- I have a few poodles that I
breed as a hobby.

That's the only animals you're keeping at the moment?-- I have
a few cats, a cow, geese, chooks, pigeons.

And do you keep - do you keep those animals in any sense for

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the purpose of making money, purpose of income?-- I do not
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making a little money out of it but that's not my income.

You make money out of it by selling those animals?-- I make a
little, yeah. You have to love it to do it because you don't
make enough to make it a money earner as such.

Have you got any university education with respect to matters
of veterinarian science?-- No.

10
Or in fact any education, qualifications or courses with
respect to the care of animals?-- I am a fully trained
international cat show judge, which I was for 20 years.

Yes?-- That gives you a lot of education in cats. They're not
unlike dogs. I have worked for vets before.

In what capacity?-- As their veterinary assistant.

In what years?-- I'm probably going back 30 years.
20

Okay. So, is it fair to say the last time you would have
worked as a veterinary assistant would have been some time in
the early to mid 70s?-- That's when I worked employed. I have
assisted at caesarean births as late as last year with my vet
in my dogs and I always assist with any operation that I do on
my dogs.

All right. Now, do you regard yourself as a breeder of
dogs?-- Yeah.
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For how long?-- 36 - nearly 37 years.

Have you ever been a registered breeder?-- I have always been
a registered breeder.

And in respect of the dog breeding what particular types of
dogs have you bred?-- Mostly poodles, but I have bred German
Shepherds, Belgian Shepherds, Rottweilers, Maremma sheep dogs.

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Have you ever bought any dogs from Mrs Robertson?-- Yes.

Did you receive pedigree papers from Mrs Robertson?-- Yes,
that was a few years ago.

How many years ago?-- About three, four - three or four years
ago.

And how many dogs?-- One.

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Now, yesterday you said that you visited Mrs Robertson at
least twice a year and sometimes more, is that - that's
correct?-- Yeah, it did vary. Some years I went more often,
others I didn't go - I probably went a couple of years that I
didn't go at all.

Right?-- There was, you know, no need to go.


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And in what years would you have not visited Mrs Robertson at
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all?-- I would say I visited her last year - it was probably
the year before last that I didn't go at all.

So, in 2006?-- Yeah, I'd say that was probably-----

The year that you didn't go to her place at all?-- I would
have gone there at all, I don't - I don't recall that I went
there at all.

10
Okay?-- But I did last year.

And last year how many times did you visit her?-- I think I went three times last year.

Now, is it correct to say that some of your visits were for the purpose of delivering a dog to Mrs Robertson for kennelling?-- Yes.

And some of the visits were to attend to assist Mrs Robertson in clipping and various activities at the kennel?-- Yes.

Okay. Now, of those three visits last year, 2007-----?-- Yes.

-----how many visits were spent with clipping and assisting Mrs Robertson in the upkeep of her kennel?-- There were none for that purpose last year.

So, in 2007 you did not attend Mrs Robertson's place and assist her with clipping?-- No, I attended it but I didn't
30
assist her in any of that.

Okay. And did - I just better finish that part. So, in 2007 you didn't visit her and help her with the upkeep of her kennel?-- No.

All right. So, you speak in your statutory declaration of attending Mrs Robertson's place from time to time and doing those things, that is clipping and working around the kennel. So, it didn't happen in 2007 and you weren't there in 2006.
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When was the last occasion when you actually attended for that purpose?-- Probably 2005, that would probably have been the year that I went every month for about 10 months.

Okay. And is it in that period, that is in 2005, that you're talking about in your affidavit when you say you were-----?-- That and prior to that, yes.

I just better finish the question, okay?-- Mmm.

50
It's very difficult, Mrs Barrell, because this is being
recorded so you have to wait till I finish my question?-- Oh,
sorry, okay.

And then you can give your answer. Okay. So, just returning
to that. The last time you would have attended for the
purpose of clipping and assisting was 2005?-- That's right.


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Okay. And so when you speak in your statutory declaration
1
about going to help wash the dogs and you make observations
that the animals were clean and well clipped and that Mrs
Robertson told you about how to clean the place up we're
really talking about 2005 and prior?-- Yes.

Is that correct?-- Yes.

Now, in respect of your visits in 2007 when you were dropping
- dropping off the dog?-- Yes.
10

Was it merely taking the dog to the reception area and giving
the dog to Mrs Robertson?-- No.

All right?-- It's never been like that.

Okay. So, I just want to ascertain from you the extent of
your observations, say, on your last visit-----?-- Yes.

-----to Mrs Robertson's premises, which I understand to be in
20
October 2007; is that correct?-- Yes, the end of October,
yeah.

Okay. Now, on that occasion what parts of the property did
you go to?-- I went into the house, I went into the courtyard.
We went down to the boarding block 'cause that's where my two
girls were. I hadn't seen them for - oh, 6 weeks or something
like that so I went down to the boarding block to see them. I
would have - we walked down, we didn't drive, so we walked
right down, and that was when I picked up two dogs too. Yes.
30

Okay. Now, on that occasion did it appear to you that there
were some overcrowding in the kennels - in Mrs Robertson's
kennel?-- Not in the boarding kennels, no.

Did it appear to you in a general sense-----?-- Yep.

-----that Mrs Robertson had too many animals there for the
kennel?-- No, I didn't - I didn't see anything that looked
like that.
40

Did you become concerned at all about overcrowding?-- No. No,
I - my dogs were very valuable to me. I left them there in
complete confidence, as when I picked the two up that I picked
up that day, an older boy and an older girl - two older ones
that I was going to re-home.

How much were they worth, these dogs, that you left with Mrs
Robertson?-- The original - the dogs themselves if you - well,
I don't even like to put a price on it. They were my breeding
50
and, I mean, if I wanted to sell them I'd probably sell them
for 2,000 each, but I wouldn't have sold them.







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Now, the dogs that were still at Mrs Robertson's premises at
1
the time of the seizure by the RSPCA-----?-- The 2 bitches,
yes.

Yes. Are they worth about $2,000 each?-- Oh yes, yes. Yes
the older ones I'm not - the ones that I collected, I mean, he
was $2,000 when I bought him but he was about 9 years old.
And I was just re-homing him. So it - that wasn't a price, I
didn't put a price on either of those 2 because I was just
giving them away.
10

Okay. Now the 2 dogs though that were part of the seizure,
can you tell me their monetary value?-- Well, if I'd sold them
as puppies with their papers I would have sold them or $2,000
each, as puppies.

And how old were they when they were with Mrs Robertson?-- The
- one of them would have been just over 2 and the other one
would have been coming up 2 when the seizure happened.

20
All right. So at that age, what was their monetary value if
you were to try to sell them?-- Well, they're ready to breed,
they're fully grown ready to breed. If you had the right
person wanting them, it's hard to say. They can have a litter
of 4 puppies, $2,000 each. They wouldn't all be worth 2,000.
It's very hard to say.

It's hard to-----?-- Because a price is what someone's willing
to-----

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Willing to pay-----?-- -----pay at the time.

Yes. But would you accept that it would be at least in the
thousands of dollars per dog?-- Yes. Yes.

Okay. Back in the 2005 period when you were attending to
assist Mrs Robertson-----?-- Yes.

-----on each visit how long would you stay for?-- All day.
I'd g in the morning, I suppose I got there at about 9 and I
40
wouldn't leave till about 4 or 5.

So you were attending there about 1 full day per month for a
period of about 10-----?-- Yeah, that-----

-----10-----?-- -----That-----

-----just let me finish?-- Yep, sorry. Yep.

One day per month over a course of about 10 months in
50
2005?-- I believe that was probably the right amount. Yes.

So it wasn't the case that you were going there for a few days
at a time?-- There might have been one occasions where I came
back a second day, but I really can't remember. All I know is
I was there very regularly in that year and part of the
previous one.


XXN: MS MELLIFONT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)04-05/KXM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

So, yesterday when you said in evidence that you would visit a
1
couple of times a year, sometimes 3-----?-- That was on
average.

Right. And is that your explanation for now telling the Court
that you were there about 10 times in 2005?-- Well, can I
explain why I was there once a month-----

Yes?-- -----in that particular year? I had problems with my
council and I had too many dogs. And Geraldine took 12 of my
10
poodles and boarded them for that time. Instead of me paying
her board, I returned with some work for her.

Now you saw the dog depicted in the video at the fence?-- Yes.

Having observed poodles over a period of years you'd agree
with me that the state of that dog's coat was so long as to
present a problem for the dog, wouldn't you?

BENCH: Are you talking about the large dog in the outside
20
yard or another particular dog, Ms Mellifont?

The large dog in the outside yard depicted at 11.21.44 in the
video. You'd agree that the coat was so long it was a problem
for the dog?-- I believe it looked a problem and a lot of
people would be upset by it. The average person would be very
upset by it because it does look quite awful, it really does.
I'm not so sure the dog would really care.

Are you saying, you yourself don't have any concern about the
30
state of the dog depicted in the video, is that-----?-- No,
it's not ideal. You wouldn't choose to have a dog like that,
but before it got wet it may not have looked like that. It
could have had a long coat, but felting occurs when the coat
is long, it gets wet, and they roll, those wads - felt can
happen very quickly.

And you know, Mrs Barrell, that it's very important to keep
poodles well-groomed, you'd agree with that?-- Oh, any animal,
yes.
40

And by grooming I'm talking about attendance to the dog on at
least a number of occasions per week, you'd agree with
that?-- Yes.

Which wouldn't - we'd do that to ensure that there is no
matting on the dog; would you agree with that?-- Yep.

And you know-----?-- Basically that is for looks though.

50
Well, Mrs Barrell, you know that if a dog gets very badly
matted it can pull on the skin and cause the dog pain; you
know that don't you?-- Yeah, but that's not a poodle coat. A
poodle coat when it falls out it doesn't fall out of the coat.
It stays in the coat like wool. It's not attached to the
body. So the fact that it's matted above the level of the
coat, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to pull on the
skin. It could do, if it got very severely done but it

XXN: MS MELLIFONT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)04-05/KXM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

doesn't mean that it's automatic. In a normal dog if it gets
1
knotted, the coat - the actual hair is still attached to the
skin and the-----

Would you let one - I'm sorry-----?-- Yes. Sorry.

Had you finished?-- Yeah.

Would you let one of your dogs get to the state that that dog
was in?-- No.
10

Mrs Barrell, have you seen a dog with eye infections
before?-- Yes.

And you can tell by looking at a dog that it's got an eye
infection, correct?-- Yes.

It's easy to detect because you can see weeping and pus from
the eye?-- And it looks blue and cloudy.

20
And the thing that you do is take the dog to the
vet?------- Yes.

To get antibiotics, correct?-- Yes.

Have you seen a dog with ear infections before?-- Yes.

And the signs indicating that a dog might have an ear
infections is that the dog might scratch at their ear?-- Shake
it's head, scratch it's ear, yes.
30

And if you see those signs you go to the vet?-- Yes. But a
lot of breeders have to self treat their animals and if you've
been a breeder for a long time vets understand these things.

So self treat in the sense of taking proper-----?-- You have
the things to use - if you don't have to buy them from a vet,
you can buy them from a produce place.

Yes, so the treatment?-- So, yeah. You have treatment.
40

Yes?-- And most people have the treatment on hand, yes.

Yes. So it's all readily accessible and can be used?-- Yes.

In your statutory declaration you say that in all the years
you've been visiting you've never seen them, that is the
dogs-----?-- Yes.

-----look anything like they were in the video?-- No. I
50
haven't.

Because to you, in the video, these dogs looked in terrible
condition?-- They looked awful. I think like everybody else I
was shocked.

And the state of the house, you would agree, as depicted in
the video, was a terrible mess?-- Yes. It's hard to say

XXN: MS MELLIFONT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)04-05/KXM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

because I have been there many times before and it has always
1
been cluttered. But the video it does appear to be worse than
I've ever seen it before. And I have been into her house.

You saw - the video depicts multiple dogs within small cages
inside the house?-- Oh yes. Yes I - no that wasn't normal.
No.

And you'd agree from your experience that's not the way to
treat dogs; agreed?-- I agree. I - there has to have been
10
extreme circumstances to have had them like that, yes.

And you - the state of the facilities in general you would agree, as depicted in the video, were not satisfactory for the keeping of animals; you would agree?-- They weren't. No. And it has - like I said, it has to have been an extreme set up to have been so bad. I just can't even imagine it - yeah.

You say that this extreme - the extreme circumstances was the rain over the Christmas period?-- Constant rain, yes.
20

Which, you understand, may have caused some flooding to the kennel?-- Well, yes. I believe at the time and it was on the news as well there was flash flooding in the area. I actually experienced flash flooding at my place and threw my cattery and kennels I had that much rain come through - that much water sitting there for a few hours, on my concrete. So I've seen it, mud and everything just coming in and the mess it leaves behind.

30
Not seeking to say, Mrs Barrell, that the rain and the flood caused -----?-- No, no.

-----the conditions that you saw in the video-----?-- But it contributed. But it-----

Let me finish, let me finish please. You're not saying that rain and the flood caused the conditions in the video, which you agreed with me were not satisfactory, are you?-- No.

40
Mrs Barrell, do you remember getting a visit yourself-----?-- Yes.

-----by the RSPCA on the 14th of April 2008?-- I've had many.

Can you remember April of this year? So, sometime after Easter, just try to cast your mind back to that time?-- Yeah. Yep.

That 2 inspectors, Daniel Young and Tracey
50
Jackson-----?-- Yes.

-----this woman behind me-----?-- Yeah.

-----attended at your property on that day?-- Yes.

And they located at your property 36 small dogs-----?-- Dogs and - poodles and puppies, yes.

XXN: MS MELLIFONT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)04-05/KXM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
4 Maremma-----?-- Maremma, sheep dogs. Yes.

Thank you. Sheep dogs. Several cats-----?-- yes.

A cow?-- Yes.

And a number of chicken and birds?-- Yes.

Okay. And you were instructed by the inspectors to improve
10
the living conditions for your animals on that day; you agree with that?-- Yes. They found fault with a few things which I took them up on.

Yes. So the fault that they found was that the maremma's-----?-- Maremma, yeah.

Thank you. Were living in small overgrown enclosure, that was one of the problems wasn't it?-- Oh yes, it had pumpkin vines growing through it, yeah.
20

One of them had hair loss around one eye and was thin, agreed?-- She had hair loss around her tail.

Okay. That's your recollection is it?-- Um, thin, yeah she could have been thin at the time. She certainly isn't now. And she's got all her hair back now. She has a flea allergy that she has to have flea treatment twice a month not once a month.

30
Birds were living on open wire and large build up - with a large build up of faeces and no fresh water?-- No fresh water? No, that wasn't mentioned. And do not remember that, no.

Well do you agree with the part that the birds were living on open wire with a large build up of faeces?-- Chooks, yes.

Yes?-- Yeah, I had chooks up in cages above the ground.

And you were asked to address the concerns of the-----?-- And
40
I did.

Sorry-----?-- Yes.

-----let me finish. Asked to address the concerns the
inspectors raised with you-----?-- Yes.

-----or they'd have to consider giving you a written direction or to seize the animals. Do you remember?-- No, that was not mentioned. Nothing was said like that.
50

I better just break that into 2 things. Did they - do you recall - sorry, did the inspectors say to you that if you didn't address the concerns they would have to consider giving you a written-----?-- Absolutely not.

They - let me finish. They would have to consider giving you a written direction?-- No. They didn't - no. Nothing was

XXN: MS MELLIFONT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)04-05/KXM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

even said like that. They were very friendly, very courteous
1
and very polite. I do not remember any warnings. It was more
or less, "You understand that that's not right?" and I assured
them that I did understand and that I would correct it. I do
not remember any warnings like that at all.

All right. Now, Mrs Barrell, during your conversation with
the inspectors-----?-- Yes.

-----you were comparing your kennels with Mrs Robertson's; is
10
that correct?-- I'm sorry I don't know what - I don't remember
that at all.

Well, I'll expand on it. You were seeking to explain to the
inspectors that your kennels, your property, was in a better
condition as compared to Mrs Robertson's; do you agree with
me?-- I'm sorry, I really don't know what you're talking
about.

All right. Did you tell the inspectors that you used to help
20
out Mrs Robertson?-- Yes.

Did you tell them that you used to work for her because - was
it your kennels were overcrowded?-- No, I had more than the
number of dogs that the Caboolture Shire Council would allow
me.

I see. Did you tell the inspectors that Mrs Robertson was
only interested in the money now?-- No. Definitely not.

30
Did you tell the inspectors that Mrs Robertson would only clip
the babies for sale but let the others go matted?-- No. No.

Did you tell the inspectors that Mrs Robertson wouldn't let
anyone into your kennels for fear that the people would see
the state of the kennels?-- No.

Did you tell the inspectors that Mrs Robertson, "Used to be an
okay breeder years ago but that she now had too many dogs and
wasn't interested in the poodles anymore"?-- I never said
40
anything like that.

Did you say to the inspectors - or mention to the inspectors
that, "Too many dogs confined together can be mad" in the
context of telling the inspectors about Mrs Robertson's dogs
killing each other?-- I didn't even mention anything to do
with Mrs Robertson's dogs at all. That was not me. Whoever
said that was certainly not me, I never said one single thing
like that at all. I have no idea where that came from.

50
Just excuse me for one minute please?-- Sure.

Thank you. Nothing further, your Honour.

BENCH: No, no questions? Yes, Mrs Robertson?

APPELLANT: Your Honour, could I ask Annette more questions?


XXN: MS MELLIFONT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)04-05/KXM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

BENCH: Well - right, well what - about what sorts of things?
1

APPELLANT: Regarding-----

BENCH: Try and remember all of your questions when your
witnesses are in the box.

APPELLANT: Yes. Sorry.

BENCH: All right. But this is your last witness though isn't
10
it?

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: Yes. All right. And what are the questions about?

APPELLANT: About the visit of the RSPCA.

BENCH: To her property or your property?

20
APPELLANT: To her property.

BENCH: All right.



RE-EXAMINATION:



30
APPELLANT: Annette, did I - did we have a discussion after
your visit from RSPCA, I think it was a couple of visits since
the lodgement of your affidavit-----?-- Yes.

-----as part of my appeal?-- Yes. And it wasn't until then
that I realised that I'd been visited because of that.

Was this the third or second time? Because there was a visit
on the 14 of April and I told you I was in the midst of
writing a letter - one of my many letters to the Minister of
40
Primary Industries the Honorary T S Marharen-----?-- Yes.

-----and I told you I was going to mention it because they
have actually contacted Margaret too-----?-- Yes.

-----since she has been a witness-----

MS MELLIFONT: Sorry your Honour. So far Mrs Robertson's
giving evidence from the Bar table I'm having difficulty also
establishing the relevance of conversations had between this
50
witness and Mrs Robertson.

BENCH: I'm sure we'll get to the point shortly, Ms Mellifont.

MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.

APPELLANT: Now the purpose of me mentioning it again in
another letter I was writing, I told you that I would mention

RXN: APPELLANT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)04-05/KXM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

it because I believe that my - the people who provided stat
1
decs and mentioned in my reports were being harassed by the
RSPCA and, in fact-----

BENCH: Is that the point of your questioning? That you
believe that this witness was harassed by the RSPCA as a
result of-----

APPELLANT: Yes, your Honour.

10
BENCH: -----your - all right.

APPELLANT: And the other point I would like to make too was,
in fact, Annette rang me very distressed after - on the 14 of
April evening to tell me that they came and they were very
polite and very pleasant but inspector - RSPCA inspector
Tracey Jackson was defaming me as usual. Common to the
deformation that the RSPCA inspectors has been saying about me
that-----

20





30
40
50

RXN: APPELLANT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)6-7/KC(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

BENCH: Just a moment. Are you saying that Ms Jackson defamed
1
Mrs Robertson during the course of-----

APPELLANT: It - yes. And she was quite worried and I said I
will mention it because I mean this has got to stop now, for
her, because - because I told her, I warned her when she
wanted to do this - that for me, that there could be
repercussions, because this has been an ongoing vendetta by
the RSPCA to me for - since 1994. Now-----

10
BENCH: I accept what you're saying; I understand what you're
saying. However, I also take into account that the comments
which were made by the RSPCA to this witness-----

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: -----were accepted and she acted on the
recommendations that they made about the condition of the dog
and the chooks and things like that.

20
APPELLANT: Yes.

WITNESS: But that wasn't the original reason they gave me for
visiting me.

APPELLANT: The reason why Annette's chooks-----

BENCH: Well, hang on.

APPELLANT: Annette will explain.
30

BENCH: Hang on.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: Now you're going too far into giving evidence from the
Bar table; all right?

APPELLANT: Yes, I'm sorry, your Honour. If I could reword
it.
40

BENCH: Well, if you've got a question for her, ask her the
question, all right?

APPELLANT: Yes. Annette, could you explain to me why were
your chickens locked up at night?-- They were - well, they
were locked up at night because I have foxes and dingoes and,
because of my new neighbours, I'm not allowed to have my
[indistinct] sheep dogs free at any time, night or day, so
therefore the foxes and dingoes come back. They dig under the
50
wire and were killing my chooks.

Annette, what time did the RSPCA inspectors visit you on the
14th of April, approximately what time? In the early morning,
mid-morning-----

BENCH: Well, let her answer the question you've asked her.


RXN: APPELLANT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)6-7/KC(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

APPELLANT: Yes?-- One time, I think it was about 9, between
1
9 and 10; the second time was a quarter to 8 in the morning.

What was the weather conditions like? Do you remember those
days?-- No, I'm sorry, I - I can't remember.

Okay?-- Could have been raining, it could have been wet. My
place when it gets wet stays wet for weeks. I can't remember.

BENCH: Nothing arising out of that, Ms Mellifont?
10

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, there's actually one matter I
should have put if I might do that, your Honour.

BENCH: Yes, you should do that.



FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION:

20


MS MELLIFONT: There was a follow-up visit on July
2008?-- That was probably the one I'm talking about, a quarter
to 8.

That you were talking about - sorry?-- That was probably the
one that was a quarter to 8.

Right?-- Yes.
30

That was Inspector Tom Barron on that occasion?-- Yes.

Do you agree that on that occasion that cats were still in
inappropriate cages?-- And I explained to him that I'd taken
them out the night before - taken them out of their cage to
clean it. It got dark and I had to put them in that cage
overnight, and that's because my neighbour also will not allow
any of my animals free at night-time, and I let them out then
and they had their freedom that day until I'd fixed up the pen
40
that they usually lived in.

And just with respect to matters arising - Mrs Barrell, do you
say that on the 14th of April 2008 Ms Jackson, Tracey Jackson,
defamed Mrs Robertson?-- Well, what's "defamed"?

Well, no, what did she say?-- She told me something that -
that maybe a normal person wouldn't know, that wasn't nice. It
was passing on information that wasn't public knowledge.

50
Precisely what did she say to you, to the best of your
recollection?-- She said - she asked me was I aware of what
had happened - oh, gee, this is so difficult - and she said
that she'd been there that day and she'd seen the - the state
of it, and that it was really awful, and did I know Geraldine,
and I said yes, I did know her. I said I wasn't an actual
friend - I - but - I'm an acquaintance, not a friend, and we
were more put together by our - a common interest in poodles.

FXXN: MS MELLIFONT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)6-7/KC(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

But it was more or less just what had happened that day on the
1
raid that - what she'd seen at the raid, what she'd - been
there. And had I not known, it would have been, you know, not
nice to hear about somebody.

Your Honour, may I have leave to ask one further question?

BENCH: Yes, you may.

MS MELLIFONT: Thank you. Mrs Barrell, are you hoping that
10
Mrs Robertson wins this case so that you can get your two dogs
back?-- I'm hoping I get my dogs back whether she wins the
case or not. They are my dogs and they have been stolen and I
am very, very angry.

Are you here to give evidence in order to try and get your own
dogs back?-- Well, yes, I'm hoping she wins so I can get my
dogs back and that - so she can, because she needs help; she
doesn't need what has happened to her the last 6 months. Had
the RSPCA done their job like they did with that woman with
20
the Chihuahuas and the Dobermans and the husky, instead of
filming her and taking her dogs away they came in and built
her new pens and cleaned the place up for her, and that's what
the RSPCA should do, not run people into the ground.

Thank you, your Honour, nothing further.

BENCH: Thank you. Thank you for coming, you're excused.


30

WITNESS EXCUSED



BENCH: Mrs Robertson, are you going to give evidence now?
Before you answer that though, did you have an issue with one
of your witnesses, Ms Mellifont, one of the vets who was
leaving to go overseas?

40
MS MELLIFONT: Yes, and we've made arrangements for him to be
here at 2.30.

BENCH: Will that be enough time?

MS MELLIFONT: Yes. I won't be leading any additional
evidence-in-chief from him apart from him identifying the
video which he has looked at, and then making him available
for cross-examination. His evidence is in the nature of
expert opinion evidence. He looks at the video and gives an
50
expression of opinion as to whether it's satisfactory for
animal care. So presuming that the cross-examination won't
take more than a couple of hours, that would be fine.

BENCH: All right.

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, before Mrs Robertson does give
evidence I canvassed with your Honour yesterday that there are

FXXN: MS MELLIFONT
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08082008 D.2 T(1)6-7/KC(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

some objections to substantial parts of her affidavit. Now
1
whilst of course acknowledging your Honour's indications in
terms of leeway-----

BENCH: Mmm.

MS MELLIFONT: -----there are broad-ranging allegations in the
affidavit which if we have to litigate will expand this out
exponentially in respect of matters which simply aren't
relevant to your Honour's determination in my respectful
10
submission.

Your Honour, can I start - before I take your Honour to
specific objections can I just take your Honour to the grounds
which were struck out of the amended notice of appeal so that
I can inform your Honour as to what occurred during the
interlocutory application.

BENCH: Which is the amended - did you say "amended notice of
appeal" or "notice of appeal"?
20

MS MELLIFONT: This was the document referred to yesterday
where some grounds - I took your Honour through the grounds
which had been struck out.

BENCH: Mmm.

MS MELLIFONT: I can hand up mine for the time being if that
assists.

30
BENCH: I'd like to locate the Court copies just - you might
have to do that, Ms Mellifont - thank you.

MS MELLIFONT: Would your Honour mind taking just a moment to
review - the struck-out grounds because the consequence for
those grounds which were struck out were the deletions from -
the strike-outs from the affidavit of the 28th of July 2008.
So your Honour will be able to get a sense of the general
topics which her Honour Magistrate Bradford-Morgan considered
were appropriate to be struck out.
40

So your Honour will see in ground 2 that matters relating to
allegations of the RSPCA and the Poodle Club circulating
malicious emails struck out.

BENCH: Three of four. Right.

MS MELLIFONT: At that interlocutory application the process
of going through the affidavit of the 28th of July, that's the
12 page one-----
50

BENCH: Mmm.

MS MELLIFONT: -----was gone through and paragraphs relevant
to those grounds were struck through.

BENCH: Mmm.



26
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)06-07/EJP (BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

MS MELLIFONT: There is, to some extent, duplication on those
1
issues and some of the earlier affidavits, and I can take your
Honour to those. Before I-----

BENCH: Probably don't need to do that, Ms Mellifont.

MS MELLIFONT: Very well, your Honour.

BENCH: Excuse me a moment. Yes, sorry, Ms Mellifont.

10
MS MELLIFONT: I'll still need to take your Honour through
some objections. Can I preface these submissions by
acknowledging that given that one of the crucial facts for
your Honour to consider is whether or not the inspectors
believe that they needed to take the animals for animal
welfare-----

BENCH: Mmm.

MS MELLIFONT: -----was reasonable and of course whether they
20
in fact held that belief-----

BENCH: Mmm.

MS MELLIFONT: -----of course matters relevant to the
credibility of those witnesses is relevant and it's legitimate
for Ms Robertson to speak to those issues. I don't intend to
make any objection which can go to the issue of credibility of
those witnesses.

30
BENCH: Not after the line of questioning of the last witness.

MS MELLIFONT: Sorry?

BENCH: Not following the line of questioning from the last
witness, in any event. I think you'd have to allow that
through, the-----

MS MELLIFONT: Yes.

40
BENCH: -----questions about credibility of everyone.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, yes, certainly. Can I then take your
Honour please to subparagraph 15 of the affidavit of the 8th
of March. This is the double-spaced affidavit.

BENCH: Sorry, 28th of March? Yes.

MS MELLIFONT: Paragraphs 15, 16 and 17 speak to Mrs
Robertson's intention if she were to get these dogs back.
50
Because your Honour's standing in the shoes of the decision
maker at the time of the actual forfeiture-----

BENCH: Mmm.

MS MELLIFONT: -----her statements of future intention at this
point in time are, in my submission, irrelevant.



27
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)06-07/EJP (BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

BENCH: Mmm.
1

MS MELLIFONT: And the justification for that submission
really comes from that decision of Griffiths, there'd be a
windfall gain, as it were, to an appellant to get back
perfectly healthy animals after six months. Similarly, with
respect to paragraph 19. And the last sentence paragraph 32.
Similarly, paragraph 49. Mrs Robertson is quite distressed.

BENCH: Sorry, I didn't see that. We might take a 10 minute
10
adjournment.

MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.



THE COURT ADJOURNED

20
30
40
50


28
60

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08082008 D.2 T08-09/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

THE COURT RESUMED
1



BENCH: Yes, Ms Mellifont.

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, we were up to paragraph 49 and the
objection was that's a statement of future intention.

BENCH: Yes.
10

MS MELLIFONT: Paragraph 15, 52, 53 and 54 and 56 all speak
about the RSPCA's clippering of the animals back in the
shelter and expressed opinions about all of that and the
objection is taken on the same basis as that taken to Ms
Barrell's.

Paragraph 65, in so far as it contains an expression of future
intention the objection is made. Paragraph 66 speaks about
future intention as does 67.
20

Paragraph 103 is in a different category. It seeks to
critique a newspaper report published in The Courier-Mail. It
seems irrelevant. That's 103, 104. Sorry, your Honour.

Paragraph 110 is future intention. That's the objections for
that affidavit. There is one further affidavit. Does your
Honour want me to go onto that now or deal with one affidavit
at a time?

30
BENCH: We'll go on to it.

MS MELLIFONT: Thank you. The other affidavit is that of 21st
July. It's an 11-page affidavit plus annexures. I'm sorry,
subparagraph 5.

BENCH: Is that paragraph 5 or subparagraph-----

MS MELLIFONT: I'm sorry, paragraph 5 speaks about vendetta.
It's one of the grounds which was struck out. Seven, eight
40
goes to the vendetta; 15, 17, 19, 20, 21, 26 through 30 are
all matters which were struck out. There's a lot of
duplication between the affidavits. They're the objections,
your Honour.

BENCH: Mrs Robertson, do you want to say anything about what
Ms Mellifont's being speaking to me about, the objections to
the contents of the affidavit, certain paragraphs?

APPELLANT: Yes.
50

BENCH: I suppose the best way to deal with it, Ms Mellifont -
or perhaps the best way to deal with your objections is, I
note the objections.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes.



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08082008 D.2 T08-09/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

BENCH: And during the course of any evidence or cross-
1
examination perhaps we could deal with it at the time that
it's raised in the course of evidence. I note your objection
about what is in the affidavits.

MS MELLIFONT: I appreciate the difficulty, your Honour.
Perhaps we can see how we go. I may have to raise a couple of
matters as we proceed. The difficulty is that because there
are these broad-ranging statements of future intention,
ordinarily I would cross-examine in respect to those stated
10
intentions if it was ruled relevant.

BENCH: Well, yes, I was going to say, I don't think I would
allow you to because I don't know - I can't see the relevance
of matters in the future when what I'm looking at is the
reasonable belief of the inspector before I go on to determine
whether or not, sitting as I do, I would confirm or reject the
decision made by the delegate.

MS MELLIFONT: Precisely, in my submission, your Honour and on
20
that intimation, I'm content not to cross-examine on those
matters. If your Honour's viewpoint changes about that at
some point in time perhaps you wouldn't mind telling me.

BENCH: I'll certainly raise it with both of you if I was to
form a different view but that, certainly, is my position and
that's how I have interpreted the legislation. I know we're
sort of appear to be ploughing fairly fresh ground here. I
was - given the decision of Magistrate Braes.

30
MS MELLIFONT: Yes.

BENCH: But we seem to be traversing almost virgin soil, in a
way.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes. Yes, certainly, in the sense of whether
there's any reported authority on the case, there really
isn't.

BENCH: Well, do you concur with my view on the principles of
40
statutory interpretation and administrative law - general
principles of administrative law?

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, certainly.

BENCH: Mrs Robertson, do you understand what I'm saying? On
the way I interpret my role as the Court what I need to
consider is what was the basis for the belief that the
inspector formed.

50
APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: Do I consider that to be a reasonable belief and then
if I reach that point, do I then go on to consider the
decision of the delegate about the seizure.

APPELLANT: Yes.



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08082008 D.2 T08-09/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

BENCH: And what decision do I come to about the delegate's
1
decision.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: Now that therefore means that any matters that -
effectively, any matters that occur beyond the forfeiture
aren't relevant for - on the face of it, relevant for the
purposes of what my role is here.

10
APPELLANT: Yes, your Honour, I understand.

BENCH: Do you understand that?

APPELLANT: Yes, I understand.

BENCH: All right.

APPELLANT: I think I do.

20
BENCH: Because it's about the dogs.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: That's what it's about.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: The seizure of the dogs.

30
APPELLANT: About the forfeiture, yes. I understand.

BENCH: Well, the central focus is the seizure of the dogs.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: Because I have to form the view before I go
anywhere-----

APPELLANT: Yes, your Honour.
40

BENCH: -----that the belief that the inspector had was a
reasonable belief.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: And the way I understand that - I haven't been all
through the Act - but my experience is that "reasonably
believes" means "reasonable in the circumstances." There may
be particular definition in the Act that I haven't been to but
50
- and that generally means things that the belief is based on
all the material that's available at the time and giving a
proper consideration of everything that's available.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: Right. And it's not to a standard where the inspector
needs to be of the view that - of a particularly high standard


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08082008 D.2 T08-09/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

such as in the criminal jurisdiction, if I was considering
1
something in the criminal jurisdiction.

APPELLANT: I'm not familiar with the-----

BENCH: Well, I have to be satisfied beyond a reasonable
doubt.

APPELLANT: Yes.

10
BENCH: That is, I basically have to have no doubt at all.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: So it's a different standard. Does anyone want to
challenge or comment on what I've just said to Mrs Robertson.

MS MELLIFONT: No, your Honour, your Honour, no, that's
correct. It's certainly not a standard beyond reasonable
doubt here, it's a question of you finding as a matter of fact
20
that a reasonable belief was held. It's really a question of
satisfaction in that sense that the reasonable belief was held
and then returns to the discretion which is exercised in
accordance with ordinary administrative law principles.

BENCH: And that means I can't take into account irrelevant
considerations, I have to take into account everything that's
relevant; I have to ensure that you have and are provided with
what's commonly called natural justice. All right. All
right, now, when you're in the - when you hop into the witness
30
box, I'll try and take you through your evidence as best I can
not knowing - but you have to keep a focus on the lead-up to
and the day of the seizures, okay.

APPELLANT: All right. No other preliminary matters anyone
wants to raise?

MS MELLIFONT: No, your Honour, thank you.

BENCH: Mrs Robertson, and if any stage you need a break
40
please don't hesitate.

APPELLANT: Thank you, yes.

BENCH: And you understand - I think I said to you yesterday,
that Ms Mellifont and Duong may ask you a number of questions.

APPELLANT: Yes. Yes, your Honour.

BENCH: When you're ready.
50



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08082008 D.2 T08-09/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

GERALDINE FOOI FONG ROBERTSON, SWORN AND EXAMINED:
1



BENCH: Could you state for the record your full name,
please?-- Yes, my name is Geraldine Fooi Fong Robertson.

And where do you reside?-- I live at 17 to 23 Buccan Road,
Buccan in south-east Queensland.

10
And your occupation?-- I am a kennel owner and breeder of
poodles.

And how long have you been a kennel owner and breeder of
poodles?-- I have been a kennel owner for some 20 years, a bit
over 20 years and a breeder for 20 years. I've owned poodles
for 48 years and bred poodles for 20 years.

Have you always resided down at Buccan?-- Yes, I've spent 16
years at Buccan and, yes, at the address, at the kennels.
20

So you had - have you - if you had 16 years at Buccan at those
kennels did you have kennels somewhere else prior to them, did
you?-- No, prior to that I was - it was - I did have poodles
like I said, but other than that I was working professionally.

You were-----?-- I was working professionally.

I see, working, yes?-- Yes, yes. I was a professional
accountant. Well, yeah, I worked for - I had worked for
30
charter firms, public companies, banks as a financial analyst
and my last position was - the last eight years of my business
career was working for the Tax Office recruited for the bottom
of the harbour schemes, during that time prior to starting the
kennel business.

So you started the kennel business 20 years ago?-- Yes, we
bought the boarding kennel as - it was a business premises,
Waterford Boarding Kennels and Cattery.

40
At Buccan?-- Yes.

Right?-- At Buccan. It was a registered business and I
decided that we had a choice and I transferred at the business
stamp duty rate because it was a business premises and that
was also my home. The reason for us moving to Buccan, my
husband was a professional engineer and he was working for -
he was in mining industry, mainly electrical and mechanical
engineering in the two disciplines and in management. He
specialised at bucket wheels and open cut mining, all the
50
heavy mining equipment and he was very ill. He suffered from
dementia and Parkinson's and we don't have family so we bought
the kennels so I could keep an eye on him and have a business
and shortly - the dogs that we loved and we started - I
started showing dogs in - I'm just trying to think.

It's 2008 now?-- Seventy - 70 - I've had poodles - I bought my
first standard poodle in 1986 and she was incredible. She was

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08082008 D.2 T08-09/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

like a child, a nine-year-old intelligent child and we loved
1
her very much and her first litter was when she was three. I
mated her to an English import because I wanted to give the
breeder who sold her to me - she was half American and half
English - a couple of pups and that's how we started with the
kennels in 1992.

And how many poodles might you have bred in the period of time
that you've been a breeder?-- The average - we don't start
breeding the standard poodles generally until they are over
10
three years old because the bigger dogs tend to take a longer
time to mature whereas the smaller dogs like the toys and
minis, they seem to have longer lives and mature a bit faster
and - we were more collectors than breeders at the start
because it was quite unbearable to part with the puppies.
That's why we needed a kennel and we thought that through the
purchase of licensed premises we could, sort of - I could work
from home and keep an eye - have a bit of income to keep the
dogs going and sort of - because we both retired when we went
to the - bought the kennels in 1992. And we - because we
20
don't have children and both of us were working we were quite
comfortable financially and owned quite a few properties which
I sold through the years to virtually fund the kennels and all
the medical expenses and that sort of thing. We retired with
quite a few properties. They were all prime properties.

So how many poodles do you think you might have bred over that
period of time?-- Over the period, I think the average was
about three or five litters a year. My - there was two
[indistinct] record; in other words, registers that I kept.
30
RSPCA took the most current one and it hasn't been returned.
The only all records - I suppose the average would be about
three to five litters a year. They were very difficult to
sell, your Honour, the puppies because they were big litters.

Big litters?-- Yes.

So how many-----?-- Average size litter between nine to 13
pups, say, 11 per litter and you usually can sell about four
or five of them and that is very intensive advertising and we
40
usually keep them. We don't cull them like some breeders do
and we don't - we used to when we're not sure, we used to sell
them desexed at a lower price. We absorbed the desexing and
the prices fluctuate but in current times some of the dogs
that were taken, the red standard poodles which were not mine,
they were subject to a swap agreement. The last shipment
arrived on the 30th of December 2007 and those dogs - there
was one in short trim, there were adult red standards, young
ones, two to three years old and nobody has seen them since.

50
So if there are eight, 11, 13 pups born-----?-- Yes.

-----from one bitch-----?-- Yes.

-----how many bitches did you have?-- Some of the bitches were
never bred from over the years.

All right?-- There was no reason.

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1
All right. Well, how many dogs were - how many pups per year
do you think were born?-- Well, this coming - the pups that
were due early this year from up to about the 15th of
March-----

Put it this way-----?-- Yes.

-----how many pups were born in 2007?-- 2007, I - usually I
breed my dogs - there were two reasons why I breed; one was
10
because, like, I needed something from those lines; the other
is because there is an order for them or there is a demand,
right, and there's always surplus left because we sell them
individually, generally, or specifically to orders like some
of our standard poodles form - in fact, a lot of them form the
foundation dogs of the standard poodles in Australia in the
rare colours and we exported - even our 12-year-old silver
standard male - to Canada. The breeder, she's older then me
and she's an icon. She's written books. She used to be a
vet. She's retired now and she bought all my standards - I
20
gave her some.







30
40
50

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08082008 D.2 T(1)10-11/LBM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

But how many were born in 2007?-- 2007 - 2005, there was a few
1
- I think there was very - 2007, that was last year. There
was a few litters but some of them were not mine, right. The
reason being, I was selling puppies for other breeders as
well. Like, say you live in Perth and another breeder lives
in Melbourne and they've got some of my progeny and we are
sort of - the lines are compatible - similar, and they've got
puppies, they're very difficult to shift and we all want homes
for our dogs - reliable homes or something that - not just pet
homes. Pet homes are ideal too, if you can find a decent pet
10
home because these are very high intensive care dogs, right.
So, what I do is, you let me know because we communicate to
some degree, you know, business acquaintances or friendly
acquaintances and I know the quality of the dogs and I'll say,
"Look, you tell me." He said, "I'm expecting a litter." And I
said, "Yes." So, I put the ads out. Maybe you work full
time. Here a few of the breeders do work full time. It's a
hobby for them, so, I say, "All right, I'll - if I got any -
have decent - what sort of homes, show homes." They say,
"You're a bit hard." you know. I say, "Do you object that you
20
don't go overseas to help with the gene pool?" and that's one
of the things that we try to achieve in our own kennel.

Right?-- And so, we do that sort of a thing and so, without my
diaries, I've really got to go through it because there's been
a lot of things that happened-----

Can you give me an estimation then, if you can't give an exact
number, can you give me an estimation?-- An estimated number,
possibly about maybe 3 or 4 litters of standards. Altogether,
30
I would have, for myself, maybe - I can't remember.

Maybe 40 with 3 or 4 litters?-- 40 pups or 40 litters?

No, 40 - 40 pups, would that be?-- That would be 4 litters,
yeah, quite reasonable because 4 litters, that would be about
40 pups.

Would there be about 40 pups born in 2007?-- Yeah, if there's
4 litters, yes.
40

All right?-- Yes, sometimes you get maybe 7 pups but then
again 13. Other breeders can get 16, so mine are - maximum of
13.

Okay and of those approximate 40, how many
would-----?-- They've got to be ordered before they get mated.

All right but how many of those would you have kept for
yourself?-- Possibly 1 or 2 if I was doing the breeding for
50
myself. Gone are the days when I used to do heath testing on
whole litters. We run them on for 12 months and test them,
then we neutered them and find homes for them, for 2 or $300
the cost of-----

So, you may have kept 1 or 2-----?-- From last year?


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08082008 D.2 T(1)10-11/LBM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

-----yourself?-- Last year's litters, the pups that I had on
1
hand, when they were taken, there was poodles and there were
two Pomeranians, pedigree and two Labradors but they were on a
shipping consignment. So, they don't belong to me. My own
poodles, I think-----

Well, you state this on your-----?-- Yes. My own poodles out
of last year's litter. The end of the year would be what I
sort of remember. There was poodles from a breeder in
Victoria. There were poodles from a breeder in Perth that -
10
and my own poodles, I think - I can't remember.

All right?-- Because-----

All right-----?-- It was all written in my date and month
calendar. Like, if you had puppies, I would write your name
down and you know, your dog's name and all that sort of thing
so I can keep track of it.

Yes?-- The records are kept a bit, you know-----
20

Well, at the beginning - in January of this year, you had
about 104 dogs on your premises, is that right?-- It was more
than 104 because, you see, I identify my dogs by 1, 2, 3, 4 -
10 in a row. The location shifts because they rotate around
the acreage. I've got facilities - the whole acreage is
developed for kennels, right?

How many dogs did the RSPCA take from you in January this
year?-- According to my records, because I note, all my dogs
30
know their names and they've got pedigree papers and you know,
they're on the pedigree papers. They were born - when we
decided to keep them, as puppies, they learn the name. They
understand language. They've never known fear.

You might listen to my question. How many dogs do you say the
RSPCA took from you in January?-- 109 or 8 altogether. That's
all I knew because in January, I listed down the names of the
dogs. I forgot about Ms Farrell's dogs. I forgot about a few
other people's dogs because I thought, "Look, it's only a
40
matter of time. They'll probably fine me or something. The
dogs will come home." You know, because I really - I was a
bit behind in my dogs but in my grooming and maintainence.
One thing happened after another, the weather and all that and
I just didn't realise that they were going forever.

All right?-- Although, in hindsight, I was pressured all the
time, all day by RSPCA Inspector Laurie Stageman who stayed
with me since the service of the summons, with him all day by
my side that he kept saying, "Surrender your dogs." He kept
50
asking me to, "Surrender, surrender all your dogs." I laugh.
I said, "You've got to be kidding. You've got to be kidding."
You know, and he was smiling and says, "You should surrender
all your dogs." But anyway, on the morning of the 9th of
January, I had been up all night waiting for the two litters
of red bitches, toys, to deliver the puppies and it was
raining all night and it was quite cool and humid and then I
went down to the [indistinct] block, the quarantine block, as

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08082008 D.2 T(1)10-11/LBM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

I call it, it's totally can be isolated and self-contained, at
1
the end of the - 330 metres, at the end of the block. It's a
big, large block, where the - I think where the dogs were
running, the end ones, and the flooding had been, I think,
from just before the weekend, the rain started when everybody
had showers of rain [indistinct] from the railway line. There
was virtually no rain and the weekend before, the Wednesday,
that was when the rain started to pour and because the ground
was so dry from 18 months of drought, we were buying water,
literally, tanker loads every - I think every 2 weeks or so I
10
had to buy water and that was how bad it got before the rains
came and the dirt had turned to talc. It was - because I
slipped - I thought I'd broken my ankle but I didn't. The gum
nuts fell on the dirt and I sort of was walking and my gum
boots slipped and that's how I knew it was talc and when the
rain came, it became - it couldn't soak through, so,
everything became very slippery and watery and then when it
soaked and soaked and soaked, after a while, on and off, then
the downpour came and it was just like the main pressure is
turned and there was so much flooding. We are self-
20
sufficient. All our water is from rain water or purchased
water and we do have mains to which - we have septic tanks and
everything was properly laid out, all of the plans on that
property, the drainage and everything was approved by the
shire in its time and the wooden kennel block, as Ms Farrell
calls it, is actually what I call my quarantine block. Anyone
who comes in goes in there for isolation because it can be
totally isolated. Like, if I was taking a boarder or I bought
new dogs from people, you just can't mix it with your own and
so, those kennels started, there was flash flooding and my car
30
was submerged in 1 metre of water, about 500 metres from in
line with that kennel block, all right, about - that was on
the Monday morning, early morning. I went up for some bread
or something about 1 something and it had to be towed back and
the raid was on the 9th and the - I had brought the dogs down
from the kennels because I tried to clean - I started cleaning
2 kennels and it was too much hard work because during - in
between the day and a couple of days before, some of the dogs
got out because all the kennels are individually latched with
a passageway in the middle and they can get out through the
40
trap-doors, through the kennel itself on the wall or through
that centre passage and because they'd got into the section
where I put the bags, the empty plastic bags to - I had to bag
all that debris and everything because of the flash flooding
and the water was receding but because it had to be tilted and
drained through the network of pipes, it was slow process
because I just couldn't clear all that debris and the
embankment was a bit higher. It came in on one side and - so,
I had to clear the pens with a shovel to let the water flow
through and through the inside, there was a drain and that
50
goes underground as well to gravel pits, I think, or to the
main tunnel and get recycled to the grease trap and then to
the sullage, but the - you were asking me about the dogs. The
dogs had pulled the bags of rubbish that you could see around
the kennels and in the kennels was - I was just piling up the
rubbish. I couldn't get into the septic because the water
level - the septic tank is slightly above the ground like the
glass on the table, just a little bit and if the water table

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08082008 D.2 T(1)10-11/LBM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

had filled up all over, there was flash flooding but it had
1
gone beyond flash flooding. I think it was flooding and I
tried to lift up the septic tank with the [indistinct] because
it was too sloppy to throw away and dispose and it was full to
the level of the ground. So, I couldn't put - empty any of
the solidified material that normally goes in the septic.

Are you talking about faeces?-- Well, not faeces, there was
leaves, twigs, branches.

10
You put leaves and branches into your septic tank?-- Well,
they get sucked - we get the man in to suck it out once a year
and he says we don't need it. For every 3 years, we might
need to get it sucked - pumped out but I couldn't - well, I
didn't have anywhere else-----

No, but you say you put leaves and branches into your septic
tank?-- Not normally, no, but in extreme circumstances like
that, I would have to, right, because that's the only way you
could clean up quickly and you call them, like, Clean-Away,
20
people like that, and they'll come and suck it up, you see.

All right?-- And clean up the septic tanks. We do it every
year. He recommended every 3 years but if we put the hair in
and that sort of a thing, it has to go every year.

Okay, are you saying that the cause of the state of the dogs
which is depicted on the video was because of the rain?-- A
lot of it is due to the dust. The dust conditions were so
bad, so, that - I couldn't groom them as much as we could have
30
because of the water restriction. You see, the prime thing
was, it was so hot, the temperature was 30 something to 40
mostly. You know, for the last couple of - 18 months before
that, during the summer and spring, we were getting really -
the drought period and we - because we have a lot of concrete
building pens, but for once up at the house, adjoining, they
have to be hosed down to cool down. The concrete sucks in the
heat and it stays there. It's like an oven, so, keeping the
place cool, the water was very important for that, you see,
and we use a lot of water, you see, for many - for the
40
kennels. So, when the rains came, right, so, we need the
water for bathing the dogs as well, you see and drinking and
all that, because-----

So-----?-- Everything was slowed down, the grooming process
was slowed down-----

Everything slowed down-----?-- Due to the climate.

-----because it was too dry-----?-- Yeah and too wet.
50

-----and then when it got too wet, you couldn't do it?-- Yes,
it just poured.

Right, all right, well, tell me about your cleaning regime.
What would you do? What would be the normal
routine-----?-- Normally?


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08082008 D.2 T(1)10-11/LBM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

-----with grooming one of your dogs?-- Right, with - the whole
1
kennel for the day, like, what would I do to [indistinct].

Did you have-----?-- See, one day in the normal-----

Did you have a routine?-- Oh, yes, every day-----

For grooming your dogs?-- Grooming my dogs, yes. I do finish
my kennel chores first because everything is set properly.
All the locations and facilities are self-sufficient. We've
10
got power throughout the property, okay, all underground
pipes, power, everything, so, normally I do the kennel
routine. It's very easy. The dogs have got a lot of self
esteem. The kennels are very easy to clean. They do not-----

Well, we'll get to the kennels?-- Yes.

But tell me about grooming, please?-- The grooming. The
grooming is usually done, like, depending on the day, if
there's - there is a set routine. The pups get wormed every 2
20
weeks. If I've got puppies, I've got extra work, so, the
grooming is a bit behind, okay? The - other than that, the
dogs get fed in the morning, so, between-----

No, I want to talk about-----?-- Yes, when I've finished-----

-----grooming to start with?-- Yes, when I finish the cleaning
in the morning, it would be late morning.

Mmm?-- And I've got to ear-mark dogs that I need to groom.
30
With the standards, right, they need to be clipped down
because obviously they're a bit over-coated and I want them to
be cleaned properly and if the weather is cool, I'll have dog
jackets for them, you know, fleeced-lined dog jackets that you
can slip on them.

Mmm?-- And so, you - because of - it's more efficient to clip
them down but not to the skin, as shown in the photos, so,
there are different cut blades. The blade they use on it is
what we call a surgical blade.
40

Yes?-- It's closed. My grooming routine-----

Your-----?-- Okay, my grooming routine, now, usually at that
point in time, I was cutting dogs down with a 7 blade which
will leave about - dirty, right. It takes a bit longer. A
dirty coat, no bathing, right, just complete clip. Look, you
normally clean a dog, give them a bath and everything for a
normal dog, right?

50
Mmm?-- But because of the extreme - cattle dogs, in
circumstances like this, it's more efficient for me and faster
for me to groom in this particular way and that is, I use a 7
blade which leaves about that much hair and go-----

It's only about a centimetre - is that a centimetre?-- About
that much. Oh, half - yeah, about a centimetre.


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08082008 D.2 T(1)10-11/LBM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

All right?-- Yeah, I think in inches, sorry.
1

So then a half an inch?-- Yes.

All right?-- Yes, yes and what I do - like, in a grooming
situation, like, I grab, for example, my old Simba. I
suspect he's the one that died. They wouldn't tell me but
anyway, I would bring him in, you know, dreadlocks and all,
because obviously they're usually not in dreadlocks but if he
was being done by me, I would groom from his face down, you
10
know, with the grain, right? There is with the grain but from
nose to tail, right. Against the grain is the other way. So,
I would just slip him off and use a pair of scissors and cut
off the extra, you know, because obviously, you know, he's
matted, right, to some degree. Some of it is not that bad and
this blade will plough through quite well. You do have to
open it and just trim down with it and then it's a rough clip.
In other words, I just clip it all off, everything off, right
and the feet and all, you know, you - I do it with a surgical
blade because that way, it's a clean cut right to the skin and
20
it removes everything, right and then what I do is, I put them
in a hydrobath. I usually do 2 of them. If I'm planning to
do - it's faster to do 2 and they come 2 together, 2 at a time
and I just put them in the hydrobath, I hose up the body and
then I dry it with a turbine dryer. It really takes minutes
because it blasts the water out. It's like massaging your
skin and then I will finish off the final bit, you know, check
their ears, flush out the ears. Usually I do - you know, when
I do the bathing or before that for a dog like that, that
hasn't been bathed for a couple of months, I will at least,
30
you know, do - he's obviously full of dust and all that. He
would need a couple of rinses, right, shampoo twice, rinse 3
times at least. The skin got debris and the only way to keep
them close and leave about that much hair, about one
centimetre-----

Half an inch?-- Yeah, half an inch, yes, roughly about that.
So, it actually looks a full - the better part of a half an
inch because you're going with the grain. I think he's got
more coats but not sufficient to keep him warm or cool
40
because, like, somebody wearing a bikini instead of a dress,
you know, it - he's got less protection, you see, so, I slap -
once he's dry, and we do the ears and all that, before he gets
in the bath, it depends. If he's grotty, we'll do it first,
you know, and sort of treat it and then I'll finish off the
fine clipping. If not, you have to wait till the next day but
I put a jacket on him. He must be dried properly and put a
jacket on and all my dogs have trampoline beds, metal frame
with the Hessian sack on it, like a Hessian sack. You just
cut 2 holes in and slip it over, so, it's very efficient.
50

How often would you groom a dog?-- It depends on the weather
conditions and the purpose of the grooming, like, puppies need
to be bathed. They don't need to be bathed that often but I
like to bath them. They need to be clipped at least around
about 5 - 6 weeks old. They usually get the clip before the
vet comes to vaccinate them.


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08082008 D.2 T(1)10-11/LBM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

What about older dogs?-- Older dog, they groom - they get
1
groomed in batches, right and the - it just depends. You
usually start with the worst ones and also with our
emergencies, like, for example, if I have time, everybody is
in - there was a time when I kept everybody well groomed
because things were working efficiently but when we've got to
do other things, like, for example, we do not take a lot of
boarders or any boarders at all generally because it's too
much work and if you do take boarders, well, you've got to -
the dogs get checked up at least twice a day on a normal day.
10
With boarders, you have to make sure and you've got to go out
every hour, on the hour and sort of make sure that they settle
in and that there are no problems, like, you know, he's not
trying to chew through the wire of fight with the dog next
door or something like that.



20
30
40
50

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08082008 D.2 T(1)12-13/VLL M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

Mmm?-- So in hot weather of course if it's really hot, you've
1
got to keep going down to the kennels and different sections
of the property to make sure that there's sufficient water.
The young ones - say they are adolescents or puppies, they
will play in the water. They are like ducks. They jump in
the buckets if they can and - or they lie in the water bowls
or they put their feet in it. That sort of a thing, you know.
It just depends. On a normal routine day, you just go through
0 you know, with the grooming of the dogs is that how you do
it, well, you work on - on sections of them. Right? If
10
you've got puppies and somebody has got a pup that's ordered
and they're due for the vet to come, of course you clean and
groom them so the vet can come and tend to them and vaccinate
them. If there is a dog being shipped away, you concentrate
on that and-----

BENCH: Well, how long-----?-- -----your normal housekeeping
doesn't get done. I mean, the grooming housekeeping.

How long would it take you to groom a dog if you were to clip
20
it in the way that you just told me?-- For - for a massive dog
like - like Simba-----

Who is Simba?-- The apricot dog. You know, the - that was
Charlie in the [indistinct]. They really [indistinct]. He
would be one of the long - it would take a bit longer for him.

What's a bit longer? How long would it take?-- It would take
me about 3 hours. He would be groomed, bathed, maybe 4
completely done, and that is no fancy clip. You know, that's
30
leaving a bit of coat dried with the turbine dryer and a
jacket slipped on.

Well, when was the last time you clipped that dog we just
spoke of?-- It would have been a few months.

A few months?-- Yes.

What's a few months?-- Don't' know.

40
2, 3?-- Can't remember. Thereabouts. Possibly maybe -
Charlie, that kennel, there was only 2 dogs there and there
were 2 dogs up at the house that was really that bad. They
were held up because of the water problem. Like, we didn't
have water and then there was dogs coming from Perth. The red
standards. And then there was puppies that were due, so
things got a bit behind and he was quite happy because Dick
had check up every twice a day. One of the things that I keep
at all those premises on those kennels - the quarantine block
and up there is - there is a pair of clippers up at the
50
quarantine block. There's a pair of scissor. Scissors and
clippers and cutting - and they get checked. Like, I check
for where the - Dick had checked every day to ensure that -
you know, that their willy parts do not sort of - are not
blocked and - because - and during the rainy - you know, you
got to check because the dogs are left on their own most of
the time, you see.


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08082008 D.2 T(1)12-13/VLL M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

All right. So, that particular dog, you think it may have
1
been about 3 months since you clipped him, is that
right?-- Give or - I think more take than give, yeah.

4 months?-- Could be, yeah.

Longer?-- Don't know. Every time I looked at him his leg -
were - movement were okay. The only thing was the coat on the
back of his body, that was pretty severe, but you could lift
it up about that high and you could see and there was nothing
10
because it was - like - more like shell, you know, which is
pretty gruesome at the back.

So it could have been-----?-- The back of his coat was bad.
The rest of it, his movement wasn't restricted. He could
urinate, he could - you know, do his firm toilet and you know,
and his mouth, he could eat because there was nothing sort of
- sometimes they drink, put their head in the bucket all the
time and the wool gets matted on the face, like, you know,
then you - I have to cut it. Emergency that is. If I can't
20
attend to him, grooming immediately, I do make sure that they
can eat and drink and, you know, do what they have to do
[indistinct] every day.

Okay. So it could have been 4 months?-- It could be.

Could it have been longer?-- It couldn't have been that long
because I had - not only Annette comes to help me, but also
there was Elaine and another girl, Wendy, comes too, but, you
know, they will come and help. I pay piecemeal. Yeah, is a
30
piecemeal-----

All right. So around 4 months?-- Yeah, I would say that.

Okay. That's for that particular dog, but how often - I know
you said because of the rain, because of the dry, but how -
what was - what would be the period - the normal period of
time that you would clip a dog?-- About 3 to 4 months.

About 3 to 4 months, you've clipped them?-- Less than that
40
actually. Between - what, 2 to 4 months.

2 to 4 months?-- It depends, like I said. If a particular dog
is - if there's a reason, like, we decide to re-home a dog
because we keep dogs back if they are a bit flighty. I've
kept only 2 of those and when they are about 3 years old they
suddenly become very obedient and very liveable. Easy to live
with, and that's when we - we sort of - if somebody comes
around, we get calls from repeat sales and, you know,
recommendations and what not, and they're looking for an older
50
dog, I say what about an older, neutered female, a male, and
they say yes. Then of course, you know, it - we spend a bit
more time making it look more - more like a normal house dog.
Like, let the hair grow a bit better. In other words, it gets
groomed once - once we know she's ready to be re-homed, so
tidied up and we monitor her and groom her more frequently so
she get used to being groomed frequently and she will settle
when she leaves and take her to the vet to get neutered.

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08082008 D.2 T(1)12-13/VLL M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
So, your grooming and process involved other - yourself and
other people assisting you on occasion?-- Yes.

All right?-- If I can't then I'll get somebody in if they are
available and there's about 4 of them that will help me.

What was your - what was your feeding regime?-- That's simple.
They get dried food mostly. 99 per cent of the time, 24 hours
a day.
10

And how do you - and how did you do that? How was that
achieved?-- All the dogs are checked twice a day minimum,
regardless. I mean unless they - something happens, I've got
to - you know, I'm tied up outside and they will still be
looked at before I got to bed, even if it is midnight. You
see, that's the advantage of my acreage, right? And I go
there, the power is on, I turn it on, check - sure - make sure
everybody is fine before I go and have a shower and go to bed
or whatever. You see, they've got to be checked at least
20
twice a day and at the very worst, you'll be tired, dramas and
whatnot, maybe once a day minimum, right? They're never
neglected. I don't go out mostly, and if I do go out it's
probably at about midnight or something like that. I got for
a drive or stop somewhere for a meal or something and then
come back, you know. The - the shopping is most of the food
and all are delivered. I will go shopping. I had been going
because when food got really expensive, because they eat the
same quality food that you and I eat, right, as in meat-----

30
I was going to ask you-----?-- Right? Meat and bone.

All right. So in addition to the dry food-----?-- Yes.

-----which you say is available 24 hours a day-----?-- Meat
and bone. Yes.

All right. And - and what sort of meat are you talking
about?-- Well, steak, beef trimmings or sometimes, you know,
about $5 a kilo. I buy in bulk. Bulk steak. Chicken wings.
40
The 3 part of the wing. You know, the drumstick, the 3 three
flaps, you know, or the chicken necks. They love the necks.
They swallow them like lollies.

Where would you - where would you buy those from?-- Bulk from
wholesalers. Bulk. We used to buy from Matilda, then all
different wholesalers. Whatever is available because they
change so different, and from bulk, which is like - you know,
the [indistinct] - I can't think of the name. They know me.
But it's not - they don't stock it, you see when - when - we
50
had 3 freezers for the dogs and 2 fridges and since then -
since the dog left, a couple of them have collapsed because I
gave the food away and then there was very little in the
freezer and I think somebody was telling me - some engineer,
electrician, he said, look, you've got nothing in it. You
should have turned if off. I didn't and it - they killed -
they died.


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08082008 D.2 T(1)12-13/VLL M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

All right. In - in addition to having dry food available to
1
the dogs 24 hours a day-----?-- They get meat and bone.

How - how often?-- The adults - every day they get something.
Yeah. Meat and bone. Yes. And there was a time when they
ate mostly meat and bone and some of the older dogs were on
that diet because they love it and the - the dry food, maybe
we top it up maybe once a week. There was always big bowls.
Stainless steel bowls or little bowls, depending on where they
are located.
10

How much of the meat did you give them - give each dog each
day?-- They used to get about 2 kilo per dog, but nowadays
they don't because it's got so expensive. Right? So, they
probably get about - because most of our dogs pack.

Most of your dogs pack?-- Pack. Yes.

You'll have to tell me-----?-- They stay together in groups.
They're social animals and they will, like, 2 dogs, 4 dogs,
20
you know, because the kennels are - well, when - when we've
got bigger - if they're in bigger runs, then they get -
there's a couple more, like 4. If not, 1 or 2 to a kennel,
you see, and the kennels are quite generous. They are roughly
5 metre long, 1 and a half wide, and all come out of
buildings. Solid brick buildings with adequate ventilation
and the usual full facilities.

All right. Well, how much-----?-- Meat do they get?

30
-----meat are you-----?-- Well, they get about - because if -
if there about 4 dogs, when I'm feeding, they eat the meat
very quickly. So, what I do is I go and give it to them. You
know, like, I get a big basin. I've got big basin and big
troughs that I, you know - the food is in there and-----

How do you-----?-- -----I give them about 3, 4 pieces,
depending on their size.

How do you disburse - how - did you have a-----?-- Yeah, they
40
take it from my hand-----

By hand. All right?-- -----and they just eat it.

All right?-- I can't leave it because then, you know, 1 will
hog the lot. I mean he's not allowed to. When I'm watching
he wouldn't. I said leave and he will. I said - if he
doesn't I say, "Leave it. No," and if he doesn't obey me, he
doesn't get anything.

50
So, you ensure that each dog-----?-- Oh, yes.

-----got-----?-- Yes.

-----meat?-- Yes.

All right. And everyday or - how many days a week would you
do that?-- Everyday we do that, but some days - there are days

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08082008 D.2 T(1)12-13/VLL M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

- like, if I'm - I'm doing a shipping consignment, I'll be
1
away most of the day, right? Like, I'm shipping some dogs
overseas for - for Benji Kennels, for example. See, I get
paid for that as well, so what I do is I go and do all my dogs
and puppies in the morning. Make sure everything is - I get
earlier. Like, you know, I normally get up at 5 and start at
5, but - on a day like that I probably might not sleep, you
know, and go through and do all my chores early. Make sure
everybody is done, let out to toilet. The dogs do not soil in
their - in their kennels. A lot of them will-----
10

No, we'll get there?-- Mmm.

So, on a normal day - put aside a shipping day-----?-- Yes.

-----a normal day, would you - do you feed your dogs meat
everyday?-- Yes.

Everyday?-- Mostly in - in - towards the evening part.

20
In the evening?-- Mmm.

Right?-- But it must be supervised. If I don't have time to
supervise, they don't get meat.

Right?-- But they get plenty of dry.

Okay?-- Mmm.

And how many occasions - how many days per week might they not
30
be supervised and therefore not get meat?-- Hardly any.

Hardly any. Okay?-- It just depends.

All right?-- Yeah.

All right. Well, now we'll go on to the cleaning?-- Yes.

Tell me about your cleaning regime?-- Well, the cleaning
regime, up at the house, if I'm starting early there's nothing
40
at the house anyway. There should be dogs in the house,
right? The only reason for the dogs in the house on that
morning was because they were brought down from the kennels to
be cleaned and wormed because they were due for worming with
that much mess and debris.

Yes. No, no. I - don't-----?-- Mmm. But my general routine
is I get up in the morning and I go outside. Anything that's
up at the house, like, in holding pens is usually because
there is a problem. Right? If somebody has got a cut on the
50
fence, I've got to monitor that cut, because if I don't
monitor, clean it, you clean the cut with salt water. Right?
If it's just - say, he - he cut his leg on a twig - on a
branch. You know, he's chewed up some branch - some branches
or something and he cut it. It's a cut, right? An open cut,
and that cut has got to be - if it's on part of his body that
he can clean, you know, you can keep an eye on him, but that
doesn't normally happens, right? But when - when - and unless

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08082008 D.2 T(1)12-13/VLL M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

- or somebody who is expecting puppies then you will be up -
1
[indistinct] the whelping room and the quarters up at the
house. The holding pen area. But normally this should be
done at the kennels, you see, so what I do is, if there's
anybody up at the house, I will attend to them, like, first
thing, last thing, in between thing and what not. But I will
go straight down to the boarding block, right, and clean all
the - all the stuff is stored there, the disinfectant, the
water. I just get the pooper scooper, pick up all the dry
stuff. Everything must be picked up because remember
10
everything thing recycled. So, I pick up everything
completely. I put it in to the septic as I go. Right. Scoop
it and put in the septic, and then because we've got the trap
doors which are operated by steel cables, right, when - when -
on a hot - late - prior to [indistinct] and the rain - during
the rain period we left those doors open. We had to. And
also when it's too hot, because of the ventilation, the breeze
flowing. That would help too. But on a normal day the dogs
would be locked in at night, so you open up all the pens and
let them out and when they go out, you shut the door, right,
20
as each dog - each kennel - dog goes out. You shut the trap
doors, and they are all out there in the morning and what you
do is you removed everything. You remove the beds, you hook
it onto the chain - chain wire fencing, their water bowls and
all. You just look - if there's dry food and it's in good
condition, it's okay. If it's not, you just tip it into a bag
or you tip it down the - the septic. Right? And so what you
do is you check that - and the water bowls all must be scrub
because they're so close to the ground and they run in and out
and the dust and the wind, you know. So, what I do is I just
30
go and do all the kennels. All the dogs are locked outside,
right, and while they are doing their toilet on the outside
kennel and I just - all the bits get hooked up. You collect
all - all the food bowls or what not, you know, and you look -
check them and make sure there are no insects or whatever,
unmentionables in them, and the water bowls are - are tipped
out and, you know, you clean up any - usually the kennels are
clean. They might be - the wool - the wool don't shed and
there is no - no faeces, right, because they don't unless a
dog is sick or if you get a boarders they probably will
40
because they are not used to the kennels. But our own dogs
don't. So you just get a bucket of disinfectant - well, is
diluted anti-bacterial, anti-fungal. That's what we use
everyday, and you go through and we use a squeegee and you
splash everything and you just squeegee through, get a brush -
a scrubbing brush - you know, with - with just the normal bowl
scrubbing like - you scrub the water bowls and you put them
back. You put the bed down back again. You put the food down
again on each kennel and we use watering cans - like,
[indistinct] for boarders, but it's very efficient, it doesn't
50
spill, and by then that would virtually have dried or - it has
been - we use - there's windscreen wipers on a stick and that
actually takes away all the excess disinfectant. Just leave a
little layer, and you fill all the water bowls and
[indistinct] then you open the door. They will come in to
check what's going on. Curiosity of course. And you shut the
door so they're locked in and you go out and pick up all the
faeces that are done outside the kennel on the outside run.

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08082008 D.2 T(1)12-13/VLL M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

You go through from the outside door, you collect all of it.
1
Once again you put it into the septic and then through the
septic tank, through the toilet opening and then you get the
hose and hose out all the outside. That part is not
disinfected because it is all out in the open in the sun and
the shade, anyway, whatever. So we - I - you've got to hose
off everything and then it goes into the drain and at the end
of the cleaning session, if it hasn't drained through
completely, you can't clean up the filters. You let it drain
because it's got to filter all the hair off and all the dirt.
10
If not, it blocks up the drains and it can't go through the
pump when it gets - recycled out. So, if that's the case, if
it hasn't drained and there's hair or something else, you
know, some leaves or what not, you know, you just wait till it
drains or remove what you can and let the rest drain and
during the afternoon when you let them out for a run - and
during that time usually we let them out for a run. Right?
When they were out there, but we don't run all the dogs
together on the acreage. You - my - there are some that will
run together as a pair or 2 of them. They don't work as a -
20
as a gang. When they are - these dogs are very smart. When
you let some out they get on really well with each other.
They work as a gang. Like, as a - as a crowd, you know, if
you've got 3 that are really friendly, you can't let them all
out - 3 out because they'll go gallivanting together. They
will - they will sort of find some hole through somewhere or
they will burrow under the dirt - you know, the 3 of them will
get in the same spot and they might escape and go for a hike
to the neighbours and then they'll come back. So we - we
learn that from the early days and we don't let them do that.
30
If you let them out - we let 1 out he goes out and have a
quick around [indistinct]. Everybody else out on the outside
and then get everybody excited, then you put him back in and
then we either do that, depending on the weather again. We
either do that for each individual dog while they are outside
doing their toilet or they can be let onto the acreage to
toilet, right, because the dung beetles will fix up the rest
and if the weather is not permitting or for some unknown
reason is a dog that is new, we would keep - let it do it's
toilet on the outside run. It doesn't get out on the acreage.
40
Does that make sense? You get to a routine and you know who
dog - which dog needs what, you know, and you just go bang,
bang, bang, and then when everything is over, you hose it off
and let it drain. You open up the runs again. You go back,
you finish off, and if you can finish off the drainage, good.
If you can't, you know, you make sure everything has been sort
of had the once over, the drains are cleared. It has to be
disinfected, the whole lot and that's it on the inside.

Prior to the RSPCA turning up on the 9th of January, when was
50
the last occasion that you went through that routine at
[indistinct]?-- I think it could have been about - because
there was dogs I had to pick up the red standards from the
airport and that was a night job so it didn't really - and
then there some to be settled in and that was on the 30th of -
30th of December and the last time I went through that routine
I think would have been the weekend before. Because that's
when - when it started to rain-----

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08082008 D.2 T(1)12-13/VLL M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


The 9th-----?-- I think the - a bit earlier than the weekend. I think it was the Thursday or the Friday. When the rain started and got bad.

The 9th of January-----?-- Because-----

-----was a Wednesday?-- Yes.

Right. So, was it the-----?-- My friend came to see me from Sydney. I think she visited - I think the weekend before. That weekend. And that was when the photos were taken. Those photos that I had in the original - she came to see some of the bitches. That was when the photos were taken.

Which photos are they?-- There was a set of photos that was submitted with the initial - the GR1 exhibits. That was Susan. That was the weekend before because it was raining. 

MS MELLIFONT: The 28th of March affidavit, your Honour. The double-spaced affidavit.

BENCH: The 28th of March, did you say?







30



40
50

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08082008 D.2 T(1)14/IRK(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour, the-----
1

BENCH: Have you got a [indistinct] that you can show me,
Mrs Robertson?

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, I can hand mine up. The problem is my photocopy is not particularly good quality.

WITNESS: Oh, could I - I've got one.

10
BENCH: I'm just wanting to see which photo you're talking
about. And when did you say that was taken?-- The weekend
before - I think it was about the 5th or something. That was
one - when it started to rain a bit. We were getting showers
then before the heavy downpour because she send me the photo.
That was another breeder that had three dogs with me that was
taken. She's suffering from leukaemia for many years and she
bought the foundation dogs from me so-----

And these three photos were taken at your kennels on
20
the-----?-- Yes.

-----weekend of the-----?-- It was either that week or the
weekend before.

-----5th or 6th of January?-- It was before the seizure and
the dogs were wet.

The weekend before the seizure?-- Yes, I think so.

30
All right?-- Either that or the - the two weekends before.

All right?-- She came on the surprise visit to see her dogs.
She wanted to take them home but they were matted so I said,
"You can't take them anywhere".

And these dogs were seized, were they? These-----?-- Yes.

These two dogs were seized?-- Yes.

40
Or three dogs? Was it three or two dogs that you had?-- Yeah,
I think the - those ones were on my property. They were my
dogs. They look half drowned, your Honour, because-----

Were these dogs seized?-- Yes, yes.

Okay?-- Yes, your Honour.

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, may I ask that that be tendered.
The only copies before the Court are photocopies and they're
50
very poor and may I also have another look at it?

BENCH: Yes, it can be tendered. We haven't tendered anything
yet, have we?

MS MELLIFONT: No, we haven't.


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BENCH: We were going to. Didn't get there. So these three
1
photographs which-----

WITNESS: Yes.

BENCH: -----you say, were taken on the weekend of the 4th
and-----?-- Either one or two weekends ago before the seizure.

All right. Well, the weekend before would have been Sunday,
the-----?-- 5th, I got feeling, isn't it, or I don't know-----
10

If it was the weekend - the weekend before would have been the
5th and 6th of January?-- Yes.

If it was the weekend before that it would have been the 29th
and 30th of December?-- I know though - I'm not sure because
the 29th and 30th of December didn't rain, I think, because on
the 30th the dogs came from Perth, the one - there was some
red [indistinct] and nobody has seen them. The owner is going
to kill me.
20

All right. Well, you're saying within - at least, within a
fortnight of seizure-----?-- Yes.

-----these photos were taken?-- Yes

All right?-- I think, yes.

All right?-- Yes.

30
Well, these three photos will be Exhibit 1.



ADMITTED AND MARKED "EXHIBIT 1"



BENCH: Have a look at that as well, Ms Mellifont. Now - and
you confirm that those three dogs were seized?-- Yes.
40

All right. And you think that the planning regime occurred at
that time, do you-----?-- Yes.

-----the last time it went through the-----?-- Yes, it was
before the - then the rain came. It was impossible because of
the - all the leaves and twigs and, you know, they came from
the embankment on - once the drive along the side and then the
kennel - oh, in the video I could sort of - but anyway - and
it got so bad and literally overnight because it was overcast
50
and it was pouring continuously, everything went green, black
and, you know, you just couldn't work out hence the bags and
the dogs - I was starting to empty the dogs to the house. I
took the dogs from the kennels to the house because it was
impossible to clean the kennels with the dogs there with that
amount of - and so the empty kennels, I couldn't take them
altogether. I had to make room for them, so up at the house,
you know, where the holding pens were. So what I did was, the

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empty kennels, I used them for storage as well. Therefore, it
1
looked a real disaster zone.

All right?-- Because there were bags of rubbish. It took me
four hours to clean that whole kennel again completely after
all the dogs left, of course.

After all the dogs left?-- Yeah. It took me four hours to
disinfect and whatnot. I didn't even bleach it. I just
disinfected and hose it. We had plenty of water then-----
10

All right?-- -----with the dams being full.

Remember hearing Mrs Barrell's evidence this
morning-----?-- Yes.

-----and reading her statutory declaration about her
observations-----?-- Yes.

-----about the condition of the-----?-- Yes.
20

-----kennels and saying that, hopefully, I'm fairly
summarising, that it didn't appear to be faeces which was
shown in the video - in the kennels-----?-- I think-----

-----do you remember that?-- Yes.

All right. What do you say that the video depicts on the
floor of the kennels?-- There was very few - very little
faeces. They were mainly debris - dirt, you know, and leaves,
30
that sort of a thing. We took some - blew up some photos
actually of that - of the - you can see, I think - I think,
your Honour could see that from the video that, you know,
close up that the - I think the - in the report - in the RSPCA
report they said that when they came into the property, my
home, the - there was the passageway. That's where they
entered and on the right-hand - left-hand side the entrance is
- it said it was loaded with faeces, I think, two or three
feet deep, and it was - there wasn't any. That was where the
puppies was. When they - when RSPCA came, it wasn't 10.45 as
40
they said. It was 9.42 because I was sitting at the computer
after the bout - the reason it was clean was because the
puppies had been wormed. They had been fed. I brought them
down from kennels before that and fed them and I picked up all
the faeces and - you have to because I want to monitor the
puppies. You always have to because they play and they'll eat
anything, pick up anything. So - and I left them there and
then I went and sat down to place my ads and I saw the - it's
a glass wall and there was the red and blue light caught my
eye. I looked up and I saw two police cars pull in and there
50
was all these cars. I knew it was a raid because they've done
it to me before without a warrant and I let them in. They
took film too. This is back in 1996, I think. So I knew it
was a raid. So the first thing I did up I looked at the clock
on the computer on the left and I just got up, turned the
computer off, I clicked the - got it off and I grabbed the
pups and I put them in those cages in the living room and - by
then, you know, after a few days of rain when - there was a

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lot of dust in my house because I left all the windows. I've
1
never closed a window till after the RSPCA has taken my dogs.
When people come and throw bottles, one of them hit me on the
head. I think I still got the lump from it. They threw me -
stones at me, tins and the phone rang non-stop for three
months and people just abuse and physically stop me in the
street. They tried to punch me. It was terrible but this
went on for about three months and still happens.


10
20
30
40
50

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The lady who - my post office person, she refused to deliver
1
to me. I think she put something in my letter box that says,
"I hope you rot in gaol," and she was somebody I knew and
every Christmas I had something for her for years. And
obviously she felt she didn't know me. You know, people that
I knew turned on me. And anyway, the - coming back to what
we're talking about, the dust was really bad because-----

Well, we're talking about faeces actually?-- Yeah. All right.
Faeces. Kennels. Oh, yes, the rain. Coming into the house
10
from the door, on the left of the court yard there's no faeces
because all that has been removed earlier, prior to them
coming in, when I saw the RSPCA, I was shocked, you know.
They came - the cars just kept coming, so I grabbed the dogs
that I could, the pups, and shoved them in those holding pens.
I had to throw paper in because they were all swamped, wet,
you know, all the pups - it had been raining, pouring on and
off. So - and I just put them in, threw paper in to absorb
the moisture, because it's too - and the dust was bad, because
they weren't supposed to be in the pen, I was supposed to
20
clean the pens first, because nothing has been in there for a
while, there's plenty of dust. And Nadi was out there with
the pups because I couldn't put her in with the other girls
because just in case they pick on her, she was in season,
that's the brown standard, and I couldn't put her in the other
large holding pen where all the males were because she would
get raped, so I - the only thing was a big holding pen that I
used to take to the Show with me where I put my standards in,
hold them, while I'm doing the showing. So that also had
dust, so I threw some papers in on top of it and I shoved her
30
in there, because she was - she was damp, you see, because
with all the dust and all that yellow stuff, it's not actually
yellow, it's brownish stuff, you know, the dirt from the
ground because the house is very low and in the hot season our
temperature go up to - when it is 30 something, 32 degrees or
36 degrees in Brisbane, we are up to 40 or 41 or up to 43,
because of the concrete, it soaks the heat, and then it just
keeps simmering the next day as well. So even at night, you
know, even if you sleep without clothes on your bed sheets are
still hot, and that's how hot the house was in the - in the
40
summer. Like, before the rains came it was terrible. And so
when - when I pull a few dogs and I knew because they already
- I already spend about 5 minutes or so, you know, putting
some of - the bulk of the dogs away and some of them wouldn't
be caught. I think in one of the photos in the film footage I
was surprised to see one little red standing round the corner
looking and say, "I'm not coming out," in the dust and the
bags. He had obviously gone under something and hid, and
that's why he was out there, because he must have run in
scared of the cars, because there was a lot of cars coming in.
50
And so I went - opened the side door and I went out, stepped
outside, past - there's the reception desk, I went past, and I
went out to greet them and Laurie Stageman was walking up. He
has been round a couple of times in the last year so I
recognised him, and two policemen came with him, escorted him,
to the front of reception. On the edge of the drive, I've got
a circular drive, and the car park, and I went out - I was
standing there for him and I said, "What are you doing here?"

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I said, "You know, what's this?" Another two policemen came
1
and joined the first two and he asked the second policeman,
the first lot, he says, "I suppose we could leave now." You
know, explaining, so two of them went off. There was only one
police car with two policemen there, and my car park was jam
full of cars and my neighbours came up to have a look, and the
road, across the road was full of cars. You go out, there's a
road, they were full of cars, and then a lot of people came up
with cameras, you know, there was these sort of things but big
ones, grey ones, and I thought - I knew the media. So I
10
thought, "This is great," you know, and I was too soaked, wet
clothes-----

You're getting - you're getting off track here. What I'm
asking you about is-----?-- Yes, the faeces.

Yes?-- The faeces. There was no faeces on the side because
it's all been cleaned and yet in the - in his statement, I
think the statement of Larry's statement, statements, he said
that it was loaded with faeces and - oh, it was putrid and all
20
that, I think. Do you want me to refer to that?

Well, you're saying what he had to say is not correct?-- Yes.
Everyone can see.

All right?-- Mmm, there was nothing. And there was a little
passageway that leads up to the back yard. The rain had come
in from there as well together with the embankment that had
fallen which could be seen from the video, at the start of the
video, the embankment. It had - the bricks had fallen down
30
because of the drought, you know, everything got dry and when
the rain poured and the puppies jump around, the bricks fell
down so it sort of - you know-----

So you're saying there's no-----?-- The dirt washed out.

You're saying no faeces in the house and-----?-- There's no
faeces in the house. That was dust.

Okay, all right. And what you're saying about the
40
kennels-----?-- And it didn't stink like he said.

Okay, and what you're saying about the kennels was that there
was very little. Is that - is that accurate?-- No, there
shouldn't be any but it was dust, you see.

All right?-- Because they-----

Well, I'll come back-----?-- They were holding pens that would
be kept there.
50

Okay. Where we see in the video?-- Yes.

The video that was played earlier, you've suggested, I think,
that what appears there is faeces on the concrete?-- It's not.


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It's not, okay?-- Yeah. You can see from the - from the film,
1
if you have a close up, I think we did a few close ups. Would
you like to see one of them?

I'll hear some evidence about-----?-- Yes.

From you and from people who were there?-- Yes, yes. You can
see from the video, I think. If they - I think one part of
the footage, it goes back and then forth, and he talked about
the table and there was hair all over. There was no hair.
10
You could see it's plenty of, like, muddy feet, you know, mud,
because the embankment, there is an embankment about - about
half the height of that, about, say, 18 inches, yeah, and that
has collapsed. It's sort of a besser block, it had collapsed,
and the dirt actually, because it's lower.

Now tell me about your health care regime for your
dogs?-- Health care.

You mentioned earlier that you-----?-- They don't get sick
20
generally.

They don't get sick?-- They don't get sick. They get wormed.
Everybody gets wormed once a month, an allwormer heart wormer.
We do rotate it, right. The product we use is Ivomectin, the
sheep dip.

Sheep dip?-- Sheep dip. Dip, dip.

Dip for-----?-- Yeah, heart worm prevention, it's an
30
allwormer. All the-----

Yes, I know, I'm just clarifying that, that's all?-- No, a vet
told us, she calculated for me. Point half of a mil will do -
.6, 50 kilo, .6 of a mil will do 50 kilo. The greyhound
people use it. It's a wormer, allwormer, as well as a monthly
heart worm prevention. That's the active ingredient in heart
worm, monthly heart worm. Or whatever. But - so we always
give 1 mil to everything big. We've got large boundaries.
It's also used for the treatment of mange, right. The vet
40
will explain. I'm not a vet. I mean, you know, I go - I'm
guided by what my vet say. If it doesn't mean anything
intelligent or meaningful I just go and find out of it. If he
says, "Oh, don't ask, you know, is okay," I won't go back to
him. If he explains to me what it's for, it's like my vet. I
said to him, "I want my pups desexed," he says, "I can't do
it, they're too young." I say, "Of course you can. The RSPCA
has been doing it since they are 5 weeks old." So I'll go and
spend half a day there and because of that my vet desexed my
pups at 8 weeks, and he's been doing it for years. Right.
50
When I want them desexed, and I just absorb it. So-----

So you have your own worming regime?-- Yeah.

That you-----?-- So we give them that. We also use panacure
hydrate. In 1990 - 1980 something, somebody gave me a show
standard poodle puppy and I didn't realise I had 3 standard
poodles already, and he came to live with me, he not only

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chewed up the furniture, he had watery runny red poo, so I
1
took him to the vet. In those days we were living in a home,
right, not in a kennel. So the vet said he had hookworms, and
the old vet was really good at Coorparoo, we go to the same
vet usually, you know, stick with the same, and he explained
to me about hookworms and so all our dogs had to be - the dogs
in the house had to be on a hookworm regime. So I knew it's
panacure 100 or panacure 10, one is stronger and one is
weaker. So you do them 3 days, you know, 1 mil for the 10, 1
mil for 10 kilo and for the 100 is 1 mil per kilo, right. And
10
it's also an allwormer and that's the only thing you use for
treating - some of the vets don't know this but the old vets
do, and 3 days in a row you use that, like, to worm and - and
you - because of the breeding cycle of the worm, and you will
kill them, and then what we normally do is we will leave them
for 10 days and we do it again, because incubation period for
virtually everything is 10 days. That's why we say 2 weeks,
you've got to worm 2, 4, 6, 8 weeks. It's not - people tell
me, "Oh, you got to do this and you can't do that," I say,
"You must understand why you're doing it, because it's no good
20
doing it nilly-willy(sic). You want to over-poison your
dogs?" You know, it's important, drugs are important, you
know, to be applied - yeah.

So that's your regime for worms and mange?-- Oh, there's no
mange.

No, no, I thought you said you used a-----?-- Oh, they use
that, the vets do.

30
Yes?-- It's that sort of a medication.

And you don't use-----?-- I don't know anything. Oh, God, no,
we don't have mange.

So you have a regime for worms?-- I've got worming, and then
we also worm the bitches before they are mated, and halfway
through the pregnancy, right.

And you apply the same-----?-- And then we start worming
40
again.

All right?-- Yes.

What about-----?-- And we rotate the worming together with
other - sorry?

What about for any other illnesses the dogs might-----?-- The
dogs don't get sick. Occasionally, like we had a few cuts on
the legs, like ear infections, because of the drought, you
50
see, once again the weather controls that, you see. The
humidity, when it gets really humid, most of them, it's like
ladies and - the ladies' problems, you know. It's anti-
bacterial, anti-fungal. It's mostly that. So normally if -
when we take it to the vet, the vet will prescribe - look at
it, he says, "Oh, we'll try this and that," and - and we find
that the most effective - and that was invented by the - that
was recommended by the vet who invented Malasap, which is an

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08082008 D.2 T15-16/LM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

anti-bacterial fungal treatment is, 1 mil of Malasap in 29
1
mils of warm water, you flush out the ears. So for a standard
I usually do four times the dose and I get a big horse
syringe.

Did any of your dogs at the time they were seized have any
problems with their ears?-- Yes. There was a couple - I can't
remember, it was written down in my diary. There was a
couple, two I think, at least two of them that was on their
second treatment, right, the ears being flushed out. I find
10
that the dogs with narrow ear canals are the ones harder to
treat because, you know, the ear is usually more or less
L-shaped and you've got to go into that part and the flushing
of the ears is the best way so the syringe with warm water,
you know, just - I pull the ears out and go choong, you know.
They are pretty good. I say "Stay", they won't - if they
don't stay I just - they will stay, my dogs are pretty good.
Also I say "Sit", they will sit and I'll just stand there and
I say, "No moving, no moving," they'll do it, and I give them
a big hug, they love that. So what I do is I just pull the
20
ear and you just syringe it right in and I say, "Shake" and
they'll shake, you know, and then all the yuck, you know, any
- if there is a fungal bacterial infection it's usually smelly
and, you know, black and brown, you know, it's the - and then
they get a treatment as well, a cream treatment that is
prescribed by the vet. Different ones for different dogs, I
suppose. And if it persists I usually take the dog to the
vet, and then he will take a swab sample and send it to the
lab for cultivation and find out what's the cause and treat
it. Some dogs get recurring problems because of narrow ear
30
canals, some don't.

And how many dogs do you say at the time of seizure had a
problem with their ears? How many?-- There was one - I think
there was two that was on continuing treatment-----

Two?-- -----because I faxed them copies immediately after the
dogs went. You know, I sat around, what could I do to help.
I did give them some shipping papers and vaccinations for the
Benji Kennel dogs because I was really concerned, because they
40
were worked on a very tight schedule to fly to Singapore,
because *337. AQIS, which is Australian Quarantine Inspection
Service, will only accept dogs within - they are very, very
strict. If it's not a 100 per cent on your dogs go back, you
know, and they're not taking it. You miss the plane, you miss
the shipping, you miss all the money you paid to ship, and
it's just too bad, you've got to redo the whole lot again.
And because there was a shipment of 12 different types of dogs
that Benji Kennel owns and I was doing the shipping for them,
and they were - the Singapore protocol was a bit difficult.
50
It's not like - to the States is different. Every country has
got their own rules. And they were - we had to meet a time.
They were - they were old enough to leave and old enough to
receive rabies vaccination in Singapore on arrival, but it's
got to do with the timing, and all the other vaccinations have
kicked in as well. So there is about a 2 week margin that you
can ship the dogs, right, a certain age - of a certain age
group, and because of that it was very fine - finely tuned. I

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was really concerned and upset. They are suing me now for
1
damages, and the - because the dogs were supposed to have been
returned and they promised me they will return and the - even
posted - RSPCA even posted a site - on their site that they
were returning them but we didn't either, apparently, and
anyway, the - I gave the papers to Laurie Stageman. He was
with me all day, that day, and he took them, and special
needs, there was Ella, whom I spent about $10,000, maybe more,
on - she had her puppies, was - the water bag broke. I
usually don't panic but it was her first litter and I'm - I
10
worked very hard for it, I waited for a long time. She was
one of my experiment gene improvement pool job, and she was
5,6 years old, it was her first litter and she couldn't - I
lie, maybe a bit younger - but - and I couldn't - I took her
to the emergency vet and they bungled. They took 3 hours. I
waited for the caesarean, I knew, because the fluid started
coming out of her nostril I knew, you know, the flap in the
stomach, the acid, that keeps it in, the - it was too long and
it flowed to the top and it had come out and it burnt her
oesophagus. I didn't realise then that they had done that.
20
So she came back with the babies, there were 13 puppies. We
saved 2. The vet was trying to save them, I said, "Leave
them, if the puppies die, I don't care, I want her saved." So
I saved 2 myself, a boy and a girl. They were taken too and
Ella was - she was - we didn't know they had burnt the
oesophagus. The vet knew but he wouldn't tell me, and she
suffered. I gave her egg nog with - you know, the
multivitamins, calcium, liquid, and all that, that's what you
give them, to keep up the sustenance. She had a caesarean at
the end of the day, and 10 days later she didn't recover and
30
she was still sick and she wasn't eating solid food. Normally
they wolf down red meat, they love red meat, and she wouldn't
eat any of that, roast meat she didn't want, grilled lamb she
didn't like, she loved, chicken, roast chicken, she didn't
like which is very, very unusual. So I - and she had a high
temperature. I took her back to the vet, I said, "What have
you done?" I said, "You've got to undo it." He won't. I
make him - I make him - I thought he left something in her, so
I made him - I literally forced him to open her up again and
it wasn't, and I said to him, "But she's not well," I said,
40
"you know, you left something in her." He said, "No." Then
he admitted. I said, "Look, I don't care how wrong what
you've done," I said, "you must know what's causing this
because she was dying. She lost a lot of condition and the
vet then finally told me, he said, "Go and see a specialist
vet," so I took her down to Compton Road and all - he said,
"Oh, it would be easier to put her-----", I said, "No," and I
said, "How much is it?" "Around about 3-5,000," I said,
"Yeah, okay." At that time I had sales for the pups. So I
said, "Okay," so I gave him $500, that's how we started, and
50
eventually it went to about, I think, 8,000 or 9,000 to save
her. It was worth it. She was quite good, and she had major
surgery. Every 4 days I had to take her down to the vet, so
these are the unusual circumstances when I had to leave home,
which is very unusual because they just don't get sick. And
so Ella had to go down there and they had to use a balloon to
blow up the oesophagus, so that the food can go through, and 3
days later it will close up, and this is all under general

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anaesthetic, and it was very heartbreaking, this beautiful
1
dog, and I saved 2 of her pups and they took them too. They
wouldn't let me microchip my dogs, the RSPCA. I beg and beg
that morning. They wouldn't let me, they - I said, "Any vet."
I said, "Where's your vet?" No vet. Everybody was there, the
full media, and I asked them to stay outside so we came in, he
served the warrant inside and I say, "Excuse me," I say, "I
must go and secure the pups" when he came. After that, when
he came with the police, the police left. Laurie Stageman
asked me, "What's your full name?" I told him, "Geraldine
10
Fooi Fong Robertson." I was in a state of shock. "What's
your date of birth?" I told him, "11 April 1945." "Where
were you born?" I told him, "Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia." "How
long have you been in Australia?" he asked me. I said, "Since
1963." And all this was in the newspaper the next weekend. I
didn't even know till I had an e-mail from the States telling
me that. "Geraldine, you know, you make the news?" I say,
"Yeah." "Why?" I said, "The dogs." And she said - and I was
shocked.

20
How often would you see a vet, your dogs see a vet?-- Mostly
the vet come to me for vaccinations. I had a vet that comes
regularly for years, but she got a bit expensive, so I used to
use - towards the last couple of years I've used a lot of
local vets and in 2005 I used another vet but he was too far,
he was - they're all good vets, but when this trouble started
I asked them, I said, "Could-----", you know, because all of
them are good people and they're very good vets and they've
helped me a lot, and I said, "Could you help me?" They said,
"I can't, Geraldine." I said, "How could you leave me like
30
this?" And they said, "I'm in business."

I'll think we'll have a - I think we'll have a break, have a
10 minute break.

MS MELLIFONT: Very well, your Honour.

WITNESS: I didn't-----

BENCH: No, it's all right, we'll come back, Mrs Robertson.
40



THE COURT ADJOURNED






50

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08082008 D.2 T(1)17-18/IK(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

THE COURT RESUMED
1



GERALDINE FOOI FONG ROBERTSON



BENCH: Move along?-- Yes.

10

I recall yesterday you said to the bar tablet that - well, it
may not have been you but there was some suggestion that at
the time that the dogs were seized that they were in poor
condition?-- Poor condition.

They were - they were unhealthy, words to that effect, skinny?
Do you accept that they were not well looked after in that
respect?-- No. No, because of the heat some dogs tend to be a
bit pickier. Like poodles always - when they are clipped down
20
completely they have got the construction that is similar to a
greyhound-----

Mmm?-- -----you know a racing greyhound and they don't carry a
lot of body fat. In other words they're generally slim dogs.
They're not like a Rottweiler or a golden retriever where they
are full of - you know, like a Labrador. You know a more
rounder-----

Muscle build?-- Yes. Well, not so much muscle. They had more
30
muscles - like muscles of steel is - is your standard poodle
like greyhound but as the other - the others are more
chubbier, you know, like a Rottweiler. They're more cuddly.
More like a - teddy bears are cuddly and I suppose-----

Does the phrase "heavyset" mean anything to you?-- Yes, more -
they are not heavyset.

Mmm?-- They are more a finer, more elegant type of a dog
because the standard says they must be elegant and light on
40
their feet like fairies. Imagine a big handsome standard
poodle male being like a fairy pouncing around but that's how
they describe them. The - so some of them vary and some of
the dogs like the one that was shown on television the RSPCA
had, you know, this - this poor old - I think there was
footage of him and he was - I believed that he - he - the
RSPCA said that all the - the dogs, there were 4 under general
anaesthetic being clipped. Now, none of the - the footage
that we can see on television there was only, I think, 2 dogs
or 3 - 3 different dogs in the whole footage. They kept sort
50
of jumping from one to the other but they looked - they are
the same dog. I can recognise them to be the same dog and the
- none of them seemed to be under anaesthetic whilst being
clipped. In other words under general anaesthetic. I mean I
would assume that under general anaesthetic they would be
quite knocked out instead of standing - the wouldn't be able
to stand on the table, for example, for hours and I think the
- the - perhaps we could look at the video-----

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1
Do you want the video played, do you?-- Yes.

I have seen it - all right?-- If - yes, if you could - then
you can see for yourself what the - I will explain while
they're sort of going through if-----

Well, what we'll do is then you take me to the points - the
parts of the video that you want to go to?-- The entrance and
then - yes.
10

And then ask my Clerk to stop it and tell me what you want to
say?-- Please, yes.

Tell me what you tell me-----?-- Thank you.

-----say about - and whilst the video hasn't yet been tendered
this might be an opportune time to tender the video. So, it
will be Exhibit 2.

20


ADMITTED AND MARKED "EXHIBIT 2"



EXHIBIT 2 PLAYED



30
WITNESS: That too, we can look at that. That looked like
that dog has got shampoo.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



BENCH: And just tell my Clerk when you want it to
40
stop?-- Yes.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Now, this is the entry to the left as you come
through the reception.
50

BENCH: Okay?-- That is the dirt. It looks like, I think. If
we go backwards a couple of smidgen please. Yes.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


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1
WITNESS: No, backwards. It doesn't matter. Now, this part -
now the first part where the bin is, near the bin, that's the
part - the bin is part on that door leading up to the front.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


10

WITNESS: This-----

BENCH: We can't have the-----?-- Sorry.

-----the two recordings-----?-- Yes.

-----so tell me what you wanted to tell me about that
part?-- That's the part that was in Laurie's Stageman and
[indistinct] Hammond. That's the entry to the left of the -
20
of the house and he says it's got 2 to 3 feet of - of faeces.
Now, this is actually dirt. No, not here backwards - early,
nearly the garbage bin. Just after the garbage bin. That's
the - that's the little courtyard where the pups were and the
holding pen I was securing was a temporary mesh that I put
across so the pups can't come out. When they came through
reception with me after they arrive at the property Laurie
Stageman and all the press and everybody else after asking me
the personal questions we came through the door and that's
when he served me the summons at the house and this is -
30
before this please. Just before this back a bit. I think
that is the entry on the left. No, the other way. Backwards.
That's it. Yes, yes. Thankyou, that's it. That's the entry.
The bins are facing the door leading to the front.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


40

WITNESS: Now, that is the dirt from the embankment. It's
been fixed up since but-----

BENCH: When you say the dirt, are you talking about what's
directly-----?-- The besser blocks have fallen down-----

Right?-- -----and the pups have dug out the dirt.

Right. And there's material around that the-----?-- Yes,
50
there's a slight amount of it-----

-----fallen besser block-----?-- There's a slight amount of
it. That is just pure dirt.

That's dirt?-- Nothing else.

Okay. Right. Thank you?-- And the other one-----

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08082008 D.2 T(1)17-18/IK(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



MS MELLIFONT: Can I just record 11.13.26 please?

BENCH: Yes, certainly. Yes, continue?-- And - yes, continue
a bit. Yes.

10


EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Please stop - it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
No, not this. Oops, thank you. Thankyou. That's it. Now,
they said that area was full of wool fur and that's
[indistinct] Hammond's report says it was full of wool and dog
20
hair. There's a table. That - that wasn't full of wool.
There's no wool on the floor. I can't see any. There
shouldn't be because that's where the pups were - were at. It
was raining so badly that - it was so heavy and all that floor
- you know the water you could see is muddy like greyish.
That was because it was the water being dissolved mixed with
the soil.



30
EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Back a bit. Back. Back a bit to the buckets, yes.
Back a bit to the buckets, yes. Oops, thank you. Yes, the
bucket - the big basin - this has got some dried food in it.
There's always food. There's a water bucket down on the floor
and all that rubbish at the back there is the soil that washed
earlier on because it was raining all night from the
40
embankment and I have been sweeping it into the back there
with - with a broom so that we can dry the - the - it's a
continuous no end job when it rains but because the kennels
were so bad I had to bring these dogs up here and they were
wormed that morning, all of them.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED

50


WITNESS: Once again, this is - there's a lot of dirt. There
could be some faeces there but most of the water came in from
the other end. This is the - the 12 - I think it's 12 feet
veranda sort of extended from the back of the house and this
bit pen here is one of the temporary holding pen that we
normally put the males. If we are up here for haircuts or

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08082008 D.2 T(1)17-18/IK(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

grooming or whatever treatment and if there are no males then
1
we will just - if there's a few of them for haircuts then
we'll put all the males up here. We do all the males at once.
All the females at the same time because they are housed
differently. We don't pair them. Does that make sense, your
Honour?

BENCH: That's 11.14.12 seconds?-- That day when they arrived
on the 9th of January - I don't know why it says the 10th but
that's when the dogs are - the males were in that particular
10
holding pen, what I call a holding pen, that's a holding pen
and there is a photo in the GR - it shows the pen is and the
kennels when they were cleaned when we had dogs prior to the
rain of course. They look totally different.

MRS MELLIFONT: Just stay there, Mrs Robertson, I'll come and
get it. Mrs Robertson is just indicating that she's got some
colour photocopies. The bar table have them - I'm not
sure-----

20
BENCH: I was just looking for those. Are these colour
photocopies-----?-- They were an exhibit, your Honour.

Sorry, they were an exhibit?-- Yes.

And they're colour copies-----?-- You would have yours.

-----of - of what-----?-- You would have yours.

Yes?-- Yours would be together with the affidavit lodged on
30
the-----

Where GR2 appears?-- The 21st, I think, 21st of the 7th.

21st of July, that's right?-- Yes. It should be - it should
be in there. I ran out of colour-----

Colour copies were filed?-- The - we ran out of colour photo.

That's right?-- The printer ink-----
40

So, I can hand that back to you, Ms Mellifont?-- You could
have that if you like.

Certainly. Colour copies here.

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, do you mind if I stop it before I
return them?

BENCH: Certainly?-- No, you can keep them.
50

MS MELLIFONT: Yes.

WITNESS: I think it just shows that with the dogs in
residence that was because before the rain came and before
they were taken the photos of the - those were some of our
dogs that were taken. The - the kennels, how they normally
are generally on a good day.

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08082008 D.2 T(1)17-18/IK(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
All right. Shall we continue with the video, Mrs
Robertson?-- Yes. This - I think that was-----



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



10
WITNESS: Back, back. Thanks, Andrew. Back a bit more.
Oops. Wonderful. A bit more. Back here. A bit more. No,
just the - okay. No, no, no, the other way. Further on a bit
more.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


20

WITNESS: 11.15. Lovely. Stop. No, forward. No, no, back.
Oops. Thank you.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



30
BENCH: Is that where you want to stop?-- More or less. That
will be fine, thank you.

That's 11.14.19. Yes, what do you want to tell me about
that?-- That basically - actually just a little bit I think,
14, 20 might be the way. There's a gate and that's where the
water came in because everything drains out on to the acreage
so, you know, it's a bit elevated than the ground. When it
rained and poured all the dirt - now that area - I've never in
6 - excuse me. In 16 years I've been there. I've never seen
40
any weeds on that property till now because I think the rain
brought a lot of the seeds from the yard on the concrete.

Which way does the water drain-----?-- Towards - if we move it
a smidgen-----

Well, does it drain from - as we're looking at
the-----?-- From the porch out to the far end.

So, from - as we look at it from the-----?-- Could you
50
please-----

-----right across to the left of that image at 11.14.19, is
that right?-- No, it drains sort of - from where the ink is to
the back. There's a big screen behind you your Honour.

I've got the same thing in front of me?-- Sorry.


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I've got what you've got in front of you?-- It's - it's that
1
part of it. I think if you move the frame a little bit more
perhaps, a smidgen. Just a smidgen. No, go the other way.
The other way - the other way.

Backwards?-- Sorry, backwards.

That's forward-----?-- No, the other way. No, this is
forward. That's it, oops.

10


EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



BENCH: Stop it there?-- That's it, spot on.

11.14.17?-- Yes.

20
So, which way does the water-----?-- The gate - the gate right
in front.

The water drains towards the gate?-- Towards the gate.

Which appears-----?-- But because it's lower - slightly lower
than the concrete - this is a concrete courtyard-----

So, the water drains from the house - from the back of the
house-----?-- Yes.
30

-----to-----?-- To the back-----

In the direction of the gate?-- Yes.

All right?-- It's all acreage up there and it's sort of - a
slight gradient and when you flood it, of course, you know all
that rubbish came back in. You see all the rubbish came up -
we don' - we don't leave anything like that, we can't. It's
against the health regulations. Like, you know, that is dirt
40
mostly. Dirt, stones, everything. Now, in 16 years this is
the first time like now. There's plenty of little weeds
growing in-between the joins of the slabs, concrete slabs,
because all those years I've never seen any - anything come
through, weeds, but because of that overflow, the water coming
in, together with the seeds from the yard I think they
actually - I've got a lot of weeds there now on - growing on
the concrete coming through the holes and pores. It's
terrible. There never was any before.

50
Okay. Keep going.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


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08082008 D.2 T(1)19-20/SMB(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

WITNESS: There's a dog in there-----
1

BENCH: It's at 11.14.58.

WITNESS: She is in a very dusty pen. It was - I had to throw
paper in there and put her in there because they were coming
through the door-----

BENCH: Is that the dog you were talking about earlier on in
your evidence about you needed to put her in there and put the
10
paper on the?-- Yes, that's right. That's Nadie. She had to
be put there because she was in season. You know I just
couldn't let her run loose. It was so dusty, I didn't have a
choice, didn't have time to clean, so I just threw some paper
on top to absorb the water and she went in there. That's
young Nadie.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
20



WITNESS: This is the halfway kennel area. There are two runs
that run out there at the back of the kennels. It has got
seven kennels, and it's a small brick block. It's not that
small, the kennels are quite large. They are bigger than the
ones at the quarantine block, each kennel. These are the runs
that run at the back of it and they were the only four
residents there. Normally all the males are kept in that
30
block, all the male standards are kept there.

BENCH: Standard poodles?-- Yes. They are standard poodles,
they are kept there. They were the last to be groomed. So
it's the block, like a block of kennels in that paddock. It's
about halfway between the house and the other block, so the
males can never get to the females without specially putting
them together. They are quite happy, they can run around
usually, because they are a small amount, and they were the
last four that wasn't wormed. They were the only four that
40
weren't wormed that month, because everyone else had been done
then, up to then, the last couple of days; puppies.

That's 11.21.36 on the video?-- Yes.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


50

WITNESS: This is the quarantine block, what I call the
quarantine. This can be totally isolated and is fully
concreted, you know, just in case anybody that comes in new,
or anything that we buy, or customers, you know like shipping
jobs. Like after, when we do shipping overseas, like Benji
Kennels dogs, they come back they must be clean, this kennel
has got to be disinfected and they're kept in there through


69
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)19-20/SMB(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

the required days that we take them back to AQIS for shipping.
1
And that is the block. They're usually spotless, they have to
be. You know all the kennels have to be clean, and that's how
they must be. So that was a very unusual period, the first
time ever in 16 years that it looked so abysmal.

BENCH: That's 11.23.21 on the video?-- That building-----



10
EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Well I think that's basically it. I feel that
mostly there are mostly debris and what not with a mixture.
It's a mixture. And the bags that were outside the building
and in the building. Because when the rain - the first day of
the heavy rain I had nowhere to put it and I was shifting the
dogs down to the house, that I thought I could get on top of
20
and groom immediately. But the water was coming in faster,
the dirt was accumulating faster, and it was more important,
the priority was always the dogs. So I took what I could down
there and it was very difficult trying to shift them because
all they wanted to do was escape and play on the acreage. The
poodles, they are like kids.

BENCH: So at 11.24.01 what-----?-- They are toy poodles.

-----appears on the floor of the kennel where there are a
30
number of poodles is dirt and a mixture of?-- Everything.
Leaves, twigs, everything. And the bundles that you see
outside the kennels, well, when I use a shovel to push them
aside and let the water flow to the drain because that again
is graded down towards the drain, slightly. It's not a sharp
grading. The dogs hadn't been moved at any point in time by
RSPCA at this time. They were still in the kennels as I left
them that morning, because most of them had already been down
to the house in the last couple of days. The pups were down
there that morning, they were the last to go down, and the
40
older ones went. The reason why the pups went down there
first at that time was because I couldn't - the Benji Kennels
had to be attended to for AQIS the next day, for the 10th. So
they were a priority, they must be spotless, and I had to come
up here and clean the kennels again because RSPCA arrived at
9.42, so I said 9.45 in my notes, and that to me was just too
early. You know I could have by then, hopefully I would have
had the dogs cleaned up and done most of my chores. But it
was very early. They didn't leave till 4.40 that evening. So
virtually - and these dogs they didn't - hadn't started
50
seizing anything. They were still exactly where they were
before they took them.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



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08082008 D.2 T(1)19-20/SMB(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
WITNESS: See the pile of leaves?

BENCH: That's 11.24.13?-- Because I think most of the faeces
were washed away-----



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED

10


WITNESS: I think there's food and water in these bowls too.

BENCH: Just take that back?-- I didn't bother to shift
anything because I was hoping to finish all these kennels
before the end of the day.



20
EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



That's 11.25.51. Are they the bowls which appear to be
depicted on the right hand side of the screen?-- Some have
food and some didn't, yes. For the small dogs I usually use
the stainless bowls, stainless steel bowls for food and water
as well. They're easier to clean and more hygienic. We used
to have a dishwasher at the kennel but, you know, it wasn't
30
practical because of the water situation. So we have to scrub
them with a brush instead. It uses too much water.



EXHIBIT 2 CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: I don't think there's very much on the video.
40
There's more exhibit in the - there's a photo I believe in the
Sunday Mail.

BENCH: Is this part of your-----?-- Exhibits.

-----material is it?-- Yes.

Is this GR10?-- With the lady holding two little red toy
poodles. They a look a mess. But see how clean the belly is,
straight from the kennel that you just saw.
50

You need to tell me where is that?-- At the back.

Is that part of the-----?-- Yes, the exhibits. On the same
one as just now.


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08082008 D.2 T(1)19-20/SMB(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

Just hold it up again. GR6?-- GR6, yes. See how clean the
1
belly is. It was from the same kennel where all the squawking
was just now.

Are you referring to the photo of-----?-- The girl holding two
little red toy poodles. They look a real mess. It's the
rain, and the dirt and everything; jumping around. See how
clean the belly is. That's the tummy. Not the girl, the dog.
This one the same kennel where all the jumping and the
squawking.
10

Whilst we're talking about clean. I'm not sure whether I've
read it or I've heard it, but there's some suggestion
somewhere that the-----?-- The dogs were eating each other,
earlier on.

What do you say that - that they were-----?-- That was said to
me in 1996 by the RSPCA, that my dogs were eating each other
in my yard.

20
I don't recall any of that in the material?-- No, I think
Tracey Jackson, the RSPCA inspector, said that - she alleged
that Annette told her that-----

What I was going to ask you about is the suggestion that the
dogs smelled strongly of urine and faeces at the time that
they were seized and were taken to the RSPCA facility?-- Your
Honour, that rain period was the first time in 20 years where
half of Beaudesert Shire was flooded, according to media
newspaper reports. In one of my exhibits there's a letter
30
from the Mayor of Beaudesert Shire, GR - I think it's 9 or 10;
6, 5 or 6, sorry. GR5. It's a copy of an email.

MS MELLIFONT: Can I just ask that Mrs Robertson holds up the
document she's referring to.

BENCH: It's GR500. No, sorry.

MS MELLIFONT: That's what's written on the document.

40
BENCH: Go to GR500, perhaps that - does it say this
Mrs Robertson, "Poodles, forward to whom it may
concern?"-- Yes.

It end off, "Yours faithfully, Joy Dresher former Mayor of
Beaudesert Shire"?-- Yes, yes. She sent me an email to see
how I was and I told her, I said I would help, you know I've
got this problem. She said, "I saw it", and she
volunteered-----

50
Is the point you're making is that it was during the very
worst flooding in nearly 20 years?-- Yes.

When half of the Beaudesert Shire was flooded?-- Yes. Also
she tried to help me over the years but there was - it was
very difficult being a Mayor too I believe, because they have
a Council and it's always the majority's decision.


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What do you say about the suggestion that the dogs smelled
1
strongly of-----?-- Because of the heavy - like I said, like a
fire hydrant broken. The shower was so heavy. Literally.
Because my dam literally filled up within hours, and it was
down to virtually nothing. And if the dogs had urine on their
bodies the rain would have washed it all off. They go out
every day for playing. I mean the rain - there was flooding
everywhere. The heavy rain would have washed off all the
urine smells. It's impossible for the dogs to stink of urine,
or even smell of it. Also it's in the open all the time.
10

The same for any suggestion of smelling of faeces as
well?-- That's right. All the smells would have been washed
off you see. So it's just a vivid imagination I believe. It's
unfounded. You see all the smells would have gone. The dogs
are very clean, they do not poop in the kennel, you know, the
locked section, at all mostly. I think in the heavy rain
periods they love it. They go most times if we don't - if we
- the gate between the two paddocks are left ajar. The dogs
actually do go and swim in the dam themselves. They just love
20
the water. So when it rains, especially with the heat, the
humidity, they would love it. And as you can see from the
video they're all jumping around when they saw people. You
know they're not worried about the rain, they love it and they
all look like half drowned rats. But that's how they look
like.

I think in view of the time we'll adjourn now for lunch. As I
said yesterday, I have a commitment in Court 1 at 2 o'clock.
I'll let my clerk know when I'm on my way back. I understand
30
there's been some discussion with him about the video, or DVD,
that-----

MS MELLIFONT: I just want the opportunity to pre-identify the
video before Court starts.

BENCH: Mrs Robertson I'm going to allow the vet. Is it a vet
that you're wanting to call?

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, Dr Kennedy.
40

BENCH: To come and give his evidence, hopefully it won't
upset the equilibrium too much, at 2.30, as soon as I get
back, and then we'll come back to you. I know we've
got-----?-- That's all right, that's fine. Thank you.



THE COURT ADJOURNED

50


THE COURT RESUMED


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08082008 D.2 T(1)21-22/EMT(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

MS MELLIFONT: Yes. Your Honour, during the luncheon break
1
with the assistance of your clerk, the video which has been
tendered in evidence this morning was shown to Dr Kennedy so
when he refers to a video, that's the one. I call Michael
Shane Kennedy.



MICHAEL SHANE KENNEDY, SWORN AND EXAMINED:

10


MS MELLIFONT: Can you state your full name, please?-- Michael
Shane Kennedy.

And what's your occupation?-- Veterinary surgeon.

And when did you get your qualifications?-- 1988.

Where do you currently work?-- Greencross, Woolloongabba.
20

And is that a veterinary hospital?-- It is.

And is that privately or government owned?-- It's a private
company.

Have you ever worked for the RSPCA?-- No, I haven't.

Have you ever worked for the Department of Primary Industries
and Fisheries?-- No, I haven't.
30

Have you sworn an affidavit in respect of the matter before
the Court, that is, matters of forfeiture of animals from Mrs
Geraldine Robertson?-- I have.

Do you have a copy of your affidavit with you?-- I do.

Is that an affidavit which was dated the 5th of August
2008?-- Mmm-hmm.

40
Can we just take - have you got it with you?-- I have, yes.

All right. Just - and looking at the - is it a 2 page, 11
paragraph affidavit dated the 5th of August 2008?-- It is.

And have you only sworn one affidavit in these
proceedings?-- Sorry?

Is there only the one affidavit you've sworn?-- Yes, that's
correct.
50

In that affidavit, you refer to having been shown some video
footage on a tape marked, "Laurie's poodles". Now, during the
break before Court commenced, did you have the opportunity to
watch a video that was played in the Court with the assistance
of the Magistrate's clerk?-- I did.


XN: MS MELLIFONT
74
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)21-22/EMT(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

Was that the same video which you saw in order to compile your
1
statement?-- Yes, it was.

Nothing further, your Honour.

BENCH: Yes, Mrs Robertson?



CROSS-EXAMINATION:
10



APPELLANT: Dr Kennedy, I'm Geraldine Robertson. Could you
tell me from your comments on your affidavit - your statement
rather, that - paragraph 3, from the - well, "Dogs living in
putrid, unsanitary conditions. I observed the dogs being kept
in pens and cages living in what appeared to be their own
faeces and excrement." Can you show it to me on the video as
to what you meant? Where did it show that?
20

BENCH: We can play the video for that purpose?-- Okay. I
mean, it was clear on mainly the inside rooms - I mean, there
was some cages and also there was some rooms where it was
quite obvious that the material was faecal material. It was
roll - it was in ball matter.

We can go to the video?-- Okay.

And you can identify where - on the video where you
30
say-----?-- Okay.

-----the material is. There's a screen in front of you -
directly - or there's a large one which - depending on your
eyesight. When you're going to identify where it is please
would you indicate what time to stop the video and we can
talk.



40
TAPE PLAYED



BENCH: For the record, that's at 11:13:39.

APPELLANT: Is that it?-- No. I mean, half of the video it is
evident that there seems to be faecal material present to what
- it does appear.

50
Well, your statement 3 said, "From the opening segment of the
tape, I saw what appeared to me to be a large number of poodle
breed dogs living in a putrid, unsanitary condition. I
observed the dogs being kept in pens and cages, living in what
appeared to be their own faeces and excrement." Now, that's a
very definite statement and you still agree with that?-- I do.


XXN: APPELLANT
75
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T(1)21-22/EMT(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

Okay. Where in the video - you can see - clearly see them
1
living - dogs living in putrid unsanitary conditions and in
their own faeces and excrement. Which part of the video,
please?-- Well this one is an example for what appears to be
the case the material behind the dogs is wet and appears to be
wet with urine and faecal material and if we could run the
video further, it would be evident in the next case.

BENCH: When you say you see again, tell my clerk so he can
stop it?-- Oh, okay.
10

Mrs Robertson can ask more questions about that.



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



APPELLANT: I put it to you that that is a mixture of rain
20
water, mud and debris, as well as perhaps some faecal - do you
still-----?-- I realise what you are saying, but the cases
where I am happy that it most likely is faecal material are
the inside areas where the rain would not have washed away the
faecal material.

And you're sure this - all right. You're sure - you're
certainly those dogs are living there?-- I'm only going from
what I can see in the video.

30
Mmm-hmm. Okay. I put it to you there's no urine
there?-- Again, I'm just going from what I can see in the-----

You can see urine there?-- -----in the video. No one can -
unless I was actually there, I cannot say that it - it's
definitely urine, it's just that it is an inside area that is
what appears to be faecal material and it is wet and there are
no obvious hoses.

I put it to you that it is mostly what appears to me to be
40
mainly mud and dirt that has been washed down and stopped by
the gate from the rain?-- Again, I say that from the previous
frames, this area seems to be mostly inside area. It's not -
the rain wouldn't be - wouldn't have so much of an effect.
The actual faecal material in the cages in more evidence past
this frame if I can go further past this.

BENCH: Do you have anymore questions about this particular
frame, Mrs Robertson, or are you prepared to move on?

50
APPELLANT: No, I would like - if - no, not for this
particular frame now. If you could reverse - if Andrew would
please reverse it back to the start and run it up to that and
then we can go on from there perhaps. Can you please have a
look and see how the water flows?




XXN: APPELLANT
76
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T(1)21-22/EMT(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
1



BENCH: That said 11:13:42.

APPELLANT: Yes. You still think - you still - what do you
think now?-- I still concur on what I said.

All right?-- I mean, to my - from what I can see, this is just
10
a video, I wasn't actually there, this area where these 3 dogs
are appears to be undercover and the proceeding frame most of
the - oh, well, about 25 percent of the area seems to go under
cover which I would - unless it was massive floods, I wouldn't
have thought that rain has any effect on causing this to be
wet.

You said you were aware of the - the date is clearly shown on
the video and you did mention you were aware of the events
prior to viewing the video earlier on.
20

MS MELLIFONT: I'm sorry. I don't think that question's at
all clear. This witness hasn't said that he was aware of any
particular events before this video, all he said is that he
has watched this video, he was not there.

BENCH: I think it's - he's made it clear, Mrs Robertson, he
wasn't there. What he's doing is civilly saying as others
have said, "This is what I observe and this is what I believe
it to be."
30

APPELLANT: Okay. Thanks. Okay. I think, your Honour, I
would like to make an application that his evidence isn't
sound because he wasn't there. He's making statements here
that are quite firm, "Dogs living in putrid, unsanitary
conditions in their own faeces and excrement" and looking at
the video - I would - if he was just putting an opinion to
that, he would have noted the time of the video is 11.15 or
thereabouts a.m. and there's no bedding, the dogs obviously
have just been let out not long - and by the amount of water,
40
it has - there's been heavy rain so the dogs may be living in
those conditions, but most likely not. There's no beddings
and-----

BENCH: Want me to rule on that application?

MS MELLIFONT: Did your Honour require my submission?

BENCH: No.

50
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.

BENCH: Do you want me to rule on that application?

APPELLANT: Yes, please.

BENCH: Do you want me to rule on that application?


XXN: APPELLANT
77
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T(1)21-22/EMT(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

APPELLANT: Yes, please.
1

BENCH: I see this witness doing no more then what Mrs Barrell
has done. If I was to rule in your favour, I would rule out
Mrs Barrell's evidence and I don't intend to do that. In my
view, no, this witness's evidence is relevant. The question
is-----

APPELLANT: Yes, your Honour.

10
BENCH: -----what weight do I give to his evidence as the
question as to what weight I will give to-----

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: -----Ms Barrell's evidence.

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: So, no, he can continue.
20

APPELLANT: Okay. Now, number 4 - your point number 4, the
number of animals, "did not appear as if any form of bedding
or place to sleep without lying on faeces or discarded dog
hair. I saw the puppies and small dogs crowded in cages which
had built-up newspaper covered in dog excrement." Okay. Do
you want to continue with the video-----?-- Certainly.

-----Dr Kennedy?-- Certainly.

30
Okay. Please-----



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



APPELLANT: Yes. Before we - okay. There's another point
here I would like to make as well, and then we can continue
40
with the video and perhaps if it looked like this I'd observe
this other point. "(5) I saw what appeared to be a large open
pen areas which in close a number of dogs which was literally
covered in animal faeces and dog hair as these dogs walked
into it. I also observed a kennel area which had a large
number of these dogs in individual dog enclosures. Some of
these dogs were coupled with other dogs in the same
enclosures." Now, could you please identify these 2 items
when you come to the video part - when you see it, please?
Thanks.
50



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED




XXN: APPELLANT
78
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)21-22/EMT(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

WITNESS: Sorry, stop it. Just go back a little bit. Stop.
1
I mean, again, I'm only witnessing a video, but from what I
can see there, those round pieces of material - solid pieces
of material in that wet area appear to be faeces from what I
have witnessed and in my profession I have seen lots of - if
you'd like to go further, please.

BENCH: That's 11:14:17.


10

TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Stop. That's the first example of a dog that's kept
in a cage on built-up filthy newspaper from - again, from what
I can see in the video. And the previous footage sorry I
should have mentioned also where the faeces seem to be
evident, there were a number of dogs in that area kept in from
20
what appeared to be dirty conditions, that was an example of
your - of the point number 5 which you were asking for.

BENCH: That's - what we're looking at at the moment is
11:15:02 in respect of the cage and the newspapers, is that
right, Doctor?-- Yes, it is.



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED
30



WITNESS: Again, this is just going from video footage, but
all of those dogs in those pens appear to be in areas where
there does seem to be faecal material that is sitting there.
And if, as you've said, it was flooded or rain, that should
have been washed away.

BENCH: That's 11:24:11 we're currently looking at.
40



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Stop, sorry. Just back prior to where that dog was
walking across. Again, this is an inside area which shouldn't
have been washed away - I mean, it's inside so rain shouldn't
50
have had any affect, appears to be faecal material in that
area just - again, just before this frame.

BENCH: What we're looking at at the moment is 11:25:57.




XXN: APPELLANT
79
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T23-24/BW(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Stop. Sorry, it's all the same material that's
[indistinct].



10
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: That's the same sort of area but again it appears to
be evident that is more [indistinct] material in an area where
these dogs are and lots of it.

BENCH: Sorry, that's 11.26 26?

20


TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Sorry, can I ask a question? Do I need to stop at
every frame wherever I feel I can see something that seems to
be faeces?

30
BENCH: Yes you do. Mrs Robertson has asked you to identify
it?-- Well this frame here please.

11.27.00



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


40

WITNESS: Again there seems to be evidence there's faecal
material present.

BENCH: So 11.27.43.



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED

50


WITNESS: I think it was 30.14 here appears to be faecal
material present. And that was an illustration of the inside
area but there were a lot of large dogs in a small confined
area.
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED


XXN: APPELLANT
80
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T23-24/BW(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1


WITNESS: Again where that dog is standing up there appears to
be faecal material present where that dog is.

BENCH: That's 11.33. Are you talking about the larger of the
three dogs?-- Yes.


10

TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: A lot of this material does appear to be faecal
material.

BENCH: 11.39.58.

20


TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Just the illustration where these dogs were.
Overcrowded with no bedding and that's an illustration of the
large number of dogs there in a small enclosure or pen.

30
BENCH: 11.46.35.



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



WITNESS: Again another indication of overcrowding with matted
bedding or matted newspaper that's just been left there
40
probably, I mean I can't say for sure, but faecal material.

BENCH: 11.49.05



TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



50
WITNESS: That last - just prior to the - just appeared to be
again pieces of newspaper that looks like it hasn't been
changed for quite a while and overcrowded.

BENCH: That's 11.50.07




XXN: APPELLANT
81
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T23-24/BW(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
TAPE CONTINUED TO BE PLAYED



APPELLANT: Dr Kennedy, have you seen the coupling dogs that
you mentioned?-- That is a bad word. I just meant that
they've been kept with other dogs in the same enclosures which
I noted a number of frames there where the dogs were
overcrowded.
10

You are now saying that the statement you've made, some of
these dogs were coupled with other dogs in the same enclosures
means that they are all bunched up together?-- That's correct.

I would like to - using your expertise, right, in the kennel
of say a normal health - general - normal health problem
kennels of 100 dogs, how many dogs generally from normal
health, you know without sort of a contagious disease running
through or anything like that, how many dogs could be affected
20
from a normal say minor health problems such as kennel cough,
ear infections, injury wounds, intestinal infections in a
period of three months, say out of 100 dogs in three months.
How many cases would you expect to find generally as a
rule?-- Sorry, I can't answer that question because that's too
general.

I mean say any average kennel, a normal healthy kennel, of 100
dogs just for example. If you have a 100 normal dogs but in
general weather conditions like day to day living, in a three
30
month average period, in other words, how many dogs would you
think would be normal that would sort of fall ill. Like
someone might come up with a cough because they've got a cold
or somebody has got diarrhoea because of bad food or whatever,
indigestion or something or injury in wounds like on acreage
property like this. Do you have any idea?-- Again I think the
question is too general, you need to be more specific. You're
talking about - you're covering things from general husbandry
to accident to things that have been introduced. I can't
answer that question.
40

You can't answer the question. Well what about a kennel that
you see on the screen like similar conditions, like where
they've got runs. Have you been to that kennel before?-- No.

You are making a lot of assumptions based on something that
you see from a video?-- Again I was just asked to witness this
video on what I can see.

Your opinion on the video?-- And that is what I could see from
50
my brain and what my eyes can see and witness.

Now if I were to put to you that - you can't really say there
are faeces because-----?-- Again it is a video, it is a two
dimensional object. Unless I can jump into the video and
smell it and feel it, I'm just going from what appears to be
the case. As I said to you before I was only pointing out the
ones, mainly the inside enclosures where it will be more

XXN: APPELLANT
82
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T23-24/BW(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
consistent with the faecal and urine material. Because
outside you couldn't say 100 per cent sure, whereas inside it
looked like that was the case.

Now you've watched the video, you've seen the lay of the land,
the set up of the kennels and you still believe in your mind
what you saw and the property was wet and obviously had plenty
- experienced plenty of water and - do you listen to the news
most nights or watch the news?-- I'm afraid working 12 hours a
10
day I don't get to watch the news. Sorry, I don't know the
relevance-----

BENCH: Mrs Robertson I'm not sure that-----

WITNESS: Sorry, I don't know why this is relevant?

BENCH: I'm not sure that the doctor has actually agreed with
you about the water. I don't think he's been asked any
questions about that.
20

APPELLANT: He said himself earlier on that it looked like
there was a lot of rain, it would have washed away the faeces
and you know, and that - wash away the mud-----

BENCH: Are you talking about water in that context?

APPELLANT: Sorry?

BENCH: Are you talking about water in the sense of rain
30
washing the faeces away rather than water in the sense of
water for the dogs to drink?

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: I understood that's what you were talking about.

APPELLANT: Was that what you meant?-- No, Theresa what I
meant was that enclosure, I said that was mostly an inside
enclosure so from what I could see I felt was urine and faeces
40
because it could not have been washed away with rain. Whereas
the outside area that's possible that could be the case, it
could have been wet from the rain. But that was an inside
area, unless there was flood, huge floods there, it didn't
look like it was consistent with anything else except urine
and faeces from what I could see. Sorry if I could clarify.
I'm not only going from what I could see on the ground, it's
the state of the actual animal. I mean that looked like
faecal material that was actually on animals themselves and
the wet from urine. So I mean it's not just from what I can
50
see on the ground, I'm sorry.

If I were to tell you that there were four days of continuous
rain, there was flash flooding, there are water lines where
the kennels were flooded to and the dirt and the debris from
the acreage of 18 months drought had suddenly - there was
soaking rain before and then it got heavy and washed into the
kennels and the dogs have been removed progressively in order

XXN: APPELLANT
83
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T23-24/BW(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
to clean the kennels and the kennels don't have sewerage
systems but we have got a septic system where everything is
recycled. Like you still think that you have come to the
right conclusion in view of all those facts?-- I'm sorry I
just find that hard to believe what you're saying.

Hard to believe, okay?-- Just that from what I could see in
the footage, from what I could see from my own eyes, it all
seemed consistently-----
10

How could you tell?

BENCH: Let him finish.

WITNESS: Consistently soiled with faecal material and as I
said before I couldn't say 100 per cent in the outside areas
but the inside areas seem to be mainly soiled with faecal
material and urine, and also in relation to the state of the
animals that I could see as well.
20

APPELLANT: Even though if I tell you that the rain had
flooded into the kennels up to about that much, about say 3, 4
inches of water level. You said there was no bedding, did you
say that?-- yes.

Did you notice all the metal frames hanging onto the side of
the kennels, all the trampoline beds that had been stripped
off and all those beds in the kennel and outside which
contained, of course you couldn't see, the material of the
30
bedding?-- Mmm mmm.

If I were to say that to you, you still say that you insist on
or would you sort of have a-----?-- Again I'm just going from
my experience.

As a vet?-- As a vet with cleaning out lots of animals that
have been sick and unwell, and also seeing footage of
countries that have been in hurricanes and floods and whatever
from what I've seen of them it didn't look anything like what
40
I witnessed in the video.

Have you seen kennels in foreign countries, third world
countries as you call it that have been flooded out and you
don't see anything like that?-- No.

Which kennels have you seen in third world countries that have
been flooded out?-- I'm sorry.

That are similar?-- I'm sorry you put the words into my mouth
50
then, I didn't say kennels, I said animals that have been in
floods and conditions like that.

Were the animals in floods and conditions like that, what sort
of animals that live in kennels like that in third world
countries, in a similar sort of kennel?-- No, no, again you're
putting words in my mouth. I meant animals that have been
through floods, through hurricanes and floods don't present as

XXN: APPELLANT
84
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T23-24/BW(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
I witnessed in this video, they don't end up looking like
that. They end up being matted by mud and debris.

What sort of animals?-- Sorry?

What sort of animals are you talking about? When you say
you've seen them through floods. They have been flooded out
animals through mud and debris you say. What is the
difference, the animals or the type of animals?-- The general
10
condition that they end up with. I mean I'm just talking
about dogs, livestock, sheep all that type of thing if they've
been in a flood or a hurricane or something like that.
Whereas from what I could see on the footage of this video
that type of state of their coat and what appeared to be
caught on the coat and the legs wasn't anything that was
consistent with the area being flooded. It was something that
looked like it had been - I mean their living conditions -
this had been built up with time, it wasn't a sudden event
that had happened over a few days.
20

To me you sound like - unless you can specifically describe
the dogs or the animals or the cattle or goats or whatever it
was that you saw that had been in floods in third world
countries and compare to poodles who are over coated with wool
and you know, I mean you're just making assumptions again. I
mean you haven't mentioned specifically what sort of animals
you are comparing because they have different type of coat.
It could be a short haired animal that you are comparing it to
or a semi sort of more skin than hairy animal or what are you
30
comparing it to that you've seen that are different?-- Sorry,
again I'm just going from what I've actually seen in this
video.

Can you produce any evidence of what you've seen in the past
to compare it to, to what you've seen on this video or are you
just from memory comparing it. It's your memory, you can't
describe it, you haven't described it, could you please try
and describe it the difference between the two?-- I mean as I
said before I'm just comparing it to animals that I've seen
40
that have been through lots of muddy conditions.

MS MELLIFONT: Excuse me. This witness is trying to give
answers to questions so Ms Robertson should, in my submission,
allow him to answer the questions she asks and try one
question at a time.

BENCH: Ms Robertson would you allow the doctor to answer the
question before you ask the next question. The rules as you
know when one person talks to the other one you must keep
50
quiet. Perhaps you should ask the question again I think.

APPELLANT: Well the question is, I would like to know how you
compare of which animal between the ones that you've seen that
survived the flood compared to my dogs in the same, similar
sort of condition, where there wasn't enough water in my
kennels to drown them but there was sufficient to make a mess,
and it took a while before the water subsided and included in

XXN: APPELLANT
85
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T23-24/BW(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
it was dirt and dust from 18 months of debris, from 18 months
of drought, right. We had all the debris included from the
acreage leaves, dirt, dust that became mud, mixed with faeces,
or some faeces, faecal material, some, I wouldn't say a lot
because that was removed. And how could you tell the
difference between the animals of a wool coat in a similar
condition to animals that you've seen survive? Please
describe the condition of them and what they look like? What
sort of animal? Because you said you've seen
10
sheep-----?-- Sorry, I can't-----

-----cattle?-- Sorry I can't see the relevance.





20
30
40
50

XXN: APPELLANT
86
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T25-26/EJP(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

There is a relevance. Because we're using - you're giving
1
your expert opinion based on a video that you're looking at
and you're assuming - it's all assumptions. And you haven't
been there before, you've never seen those kennels before, you
- you're just seeing - just because they look like logs and
lumps you're saying they're faecal material. I mean, to me it
looks like - to most people - unless you've got some special
perception or - you know, how would you know that is faecal -
you're so firm and definite that they're faecal material,
every bit of those kennels. Virtually in every - every
10
footage that came across lumps and sort of irregular looking
material, they are faecal according to you. Can you see any
other debris like leaves and - and stones?

MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, sorry, we're about up to the fifth
question. As I understand the question, what Mrs Robertson is
asking this witness to do is to explain why it is that he says
that the appearance of these animals in this video is not
consistent with animals that he has seen after flood or
hurricane conditions. That's one question.
20

BENCH: We then moved on to - moved back to faecal material.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes. So if that's the question that Ms
Robertson wants answered, respectfully I'd suggest that
perhaps it could be answered now. If not then we're onto
another question.

BENCH: Mrs Robertson, is your first question, on what basis
do you make the assumption that what is in the video on the -
30
in the kennels faeces? Is that your - is that the first
question?

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: Can you answer that, Doctor, again please?-- Sorry, I
missed that, I wasn't listening.

On what basis do you form the opinion that what appears to you
in the video to be faeces on the floor of the kennels to
40
actually in your opinion be faeces?-- Mmm-hmm. Again, like I
said before, I was trying to say with - it seemed to be mainly
allowing for outside conditions, most of the areas where I
stopped they were inside conditions where it's unlikely for
anything to have been washed away. The firm pieces of matter
appeared to be faecal material and it was in wet conditions,
again, that was inside. This was also allowing for the
conditions for what appeared the - the animals themselves
because they appeared to be wet from the areas where they were
and also matted with, it looked like, some faecal material on
50
the animals themselves. So the - the state of the animals
appeared to be in - accords by the living conditions that they
were in themselves.

APPELLANT: Right. And you still - if I tell you that it had
rained for 4 continuous days, downpours, the area has been
flooded and the water has sort of drained slowly and some of
it has been cleared to allow the water drainage, would you

XXN: APPELLANT
87
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T25-26/EJP(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

still come to the same conclusion or you would sort
1
of-----?-- Mmm-hmm.

Okay. Were you - Dr Kennedy, were you aware of the big floods
around the Logan River rising over to the motorway about 30
feet up from the river? The Logan River and the Albert
River?-- Mmm-hmm.

Yes.

10
BENCH: In - in early 2008?

APPELLANT: 2008 January?-- Mmm-hmm.

Were you aware that these kennels were 5 minutes drive from
one river and 2 minutes from the other?-- No.

Well, they are. They are actually located like that. Now,
the - the - is there any possibility you would think that they
would have suffered the same sort of - half of Beaudesert
20
shire has been reported by - half of Beaudesert shire, where
this kennel is located, has, for the first time in 20 years,
half of it has been under water. Now, in view of all those
reports you still believe that these kennels did not suffer
flooding and created some of the - the - the mess there, so
much so there is a mixture of-----?-- Can I say that I don't
really see the relevance of this. I mean, I've just asked to
witness what I can see in this video. I mean, I had no idea
on the weather conditions as such, at the time.

30
So what you're saying is you were asked to witness the video
and you're firm in your mind - you're looking at the video of
a kennel that is full of faecal material and the - the - the
moisture you saw was urine from the dogs; is that
right?-- Mmm-hmm.

Okay. Who was with you and how did you come to that opinion?

BENCH: Is this at the time that he wrote the-----

40
APPELLANT: Yes, when he wrote the-----

BENCH: -----statement or viewed-----

APPELLANT: Yes.

BENCH: -----viewed the video?

APPELLANT: Yes.

50
BENCH: At the time you looked at the video who was present,
Doctor?-- Okay. Well at the time I was with the - the RSPCA
inspectors that were - that are nominated in this affidavit.
Inspector Stageman and Towers-Hammond of the RSPCA were with
me.

APPELLANT: Both of them?-- Mmm-hmm.


XXN: APPELLANT
88
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

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08082008 D.2 T25-26/EJP(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

Okay. How did you form the opinion that it was urine that
1
sort of the dogs were - sort of urine instead of rain water?
How did you - sorry, can I start again? How did you form the
opinion that the dogs were - that was urine instead of
water?-- Again, as I said before, I had to allow for the
outside conditions, so I was mainly looking at what I could
see on the inside cupboard areas and allowing for the state of
the animals, because they looked like they were - were
somewhat damp and very badly matted with both hair and faecal
material. So that was consistent with it being - the area
10
being wet with urine and faecal material. I mean, if you have
- if you have a dog that is defecating, it has to be urinating
at the same time, that's just fact of life.

Mmm. So you don't - it didn't occur to you that the urine
could have flowed off and it could be a mixture of
water-----?-- Not really, no.

No. Okay. Dr Kennedy, what - what influence has the RSPCA
inspectors - what was their name again?
20

BENCH: The ones present? Stageman and Towers-Hammond.

APPELLANT: Oh yes. Inspector Stageman and Inspector Towers-
Hammond of the RSPCA have - have influence on your - on your
report, or comment on your statement?-- They had none
initially. I was just asked to witness this video and they
wrote down anything that I said during the video at the time.

They wrote down everything you said. So what do you mean by
30
"none initially"? You said that none influence or no
influence initially. What does that mean?-- Sorry, just to
clarify, when I was going through the video they writing down
any comments that I thought at the time, so they just - to
witness what I - what my thoughts were.

Who typed up the affidavit? Did you do that or-----?-- No,
this was arranged by the RSPCA.

And-----?-- The Department of Primary Industries, sorry.
40

Who actually - when did you sign this affidavit? Did you read
it first and sort of - when did you sign this affidavit?-- On
the 6th of August, as it is dated.

5th of August 3.10 p.m. At your premises or-----?-- This was
at a household of a solicitor.

Yes. Which solicitor?-- Merle - sorry, I don't know her last
name.
50

A solicitor called Merle?

BENCH: Are you sure that was a solicitor, Doctor, or was that
the qualified justice of the peace?-- Sorry, I beg your
pardon, justice of the peace, sorry.


XXN: APPELLANT
89
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

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08082008 D.2 T25-26/EJP(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

APPELLANT: Who gave you the affidavit? It was typed up by
1
RSPCA or whoever? Who did it?-- It was typed up by the
Department of Primary Industries and it was handed to me by an
officer from the RSPCA.

Who was the officer?-- Tracey.

Tracey Jackson?-- Jackson.

Did you hand him the-----
10

BENCH: No, you can't ask-----

APPELLANT: Oh, sorry.

BENCH: -----Ms Jackson any questions. Not yet.

APPELLANT: I don't know. Sorry. Okay. So did the RSPCA
officer told you there's been a lot of - the inspectors told
you there's been a lot of rain and flooding at that time
20
around the 9th of January? But you were aware of it?-- I was
aware of the conditions because I live in Brisbane.

Yes. Were you aware that the kennels was - did Inspector
Stageman or/and Inspector Towers-Hammond mention to you when
they showed you the video that there was a lot of rain around
the kennels? Were you aware of that?-- No, I wasn't.

You weren't? And you didn't come to that conclusion from
seeing the video either?-- No.
30

Okay?-- I mean, if you look in the - I mean, I don't
understand quite what you're saying because you look at -
there is some footage of dogs that are running around an
outside areas there-----

Mmm?-- -----and they're not - they're not exactly running in
flood water. There was actually some vegetation, not a lot,
and from what I could see they weren't - didn't look like they
were running around in mud, which would be consistent with
40
what you say, but - so I don't - I didn't see mud there that
would indicate flooding which I would have thought would have
been the case if - if it's correct what you're saying.

Thank you, Dr Kennedy.

BENCH: Mr Duong?

MR DUONG: Your Honour, there's nothing for me to traverse at
this stage.
50

BENCH: Before you start, would you mind if I just asked a
couple of questions about-----

MS MELLIFONT: Of course.

BENCH: -----the inspection. Did you know the inspectors at
all before they came to see you?-- No.

XXN: APPELLANT
90
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

---

08082008 D.2 T25-26/EJP(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Unidentified, Magistrate)

Thanks, Ms Mellifont.
1



RE-EXAMINATION:



MS MELLIFONT: Thank you, your Honour. Dr Kennedy, you were
asked as to whether the RSPCA officers influenced you, your
10
answer was "none initially". Can I ask you, are the opinions
that you have expressed in your affidavit your own or is that
- or are they as a result of influence by any RSPCA
officer?-- They would be my own.

In cross-examination you stated that the animals which you
witnessed on the video we've seen today are not consistent
with the appearance of animals which you have seen that have
come through flood or hurricane type scenarios. What was it
that you observed of the animals in the video which indicated
20
to you that they - they were not consistent indicators of
animals which you had seen through flood or hurricane
scenarios?-- Okay. Well it was mainly the dogs that had very
matted coats which seemed to also have faecal material stuck
to them. The matting appeared to be all over the body rather
than if it was a flood or such you would have thought it would
be just underneath, whereas these animals look like they've
been matted and the matting had been building up for days,
weeks, possibly longer. Because, I mean, I've seen quite a
number of animals that have had very matted coats which would
30
have been the result of been growing like that for months.

Thank you. Your Honour, I just need to take instructions on
one matter, might I have a minute?

BENCH: Yes, certainly.

MS MELLIFONT: Nothing further, thank you, your Honour. Might
this witness be excused?

40
BENCH: Thank you, Doctor. Thank you for coming?-- Thank you.

Thank you for your evidence.


WITNESS EXCUSED



MS MELLIFONT: Your Honour, before Mrs Robertson returns for
50
her evidence-in-chief, can we have a facilities break for just
a moment, please?

BENCH: Absolutely.



THE COURT ADJOURNED

RXN: MS MELLIFONT
91
WIT: KENNEDY M S
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)27-28/PM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

THE COURT RESUMED
1



GERALDINE FOOI FONG ROBERTSON, CONTINUING:



EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF:

10


BENCH: Before you sit down, the doctor's affidavit, I've got
a working - you gave me a working copy yesterday, has it been
filed anywhere in the proceedings?

MS MELLIFONT: As I understand it, it was filed on Tuesday.

BENCH: Oh that may be some of the material that's in them was
delivered to the Registry, it didn't make its way to the file.
20

MS MELLIFONT: It's possible. Ms Pressard, who's my
instructing solicitor who knows that answer can help me out on
Monday, if that's all right, and I'll find out if the original
has in fact been filed and if not, no doubt it will be in her
file and I'll hand it up.

BENCH: All right.

MS MELLIFONT: I'm sorry, I'm being told that it was filed
30
this week.

BENCH: I'm informed there is some material in the Registry,
perhaps my clerk before we commence on Monday can check for me
and then I'll go through the formal process of having it
tendered as part of the evidence.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, thank you.

BENCH: All right. Are we right to proceed, Mrs Robertson?--
40
Yes, your Honour.

Okay. I think before lunch we were talking about - we spoke
about your animal health regime and some discussion about use
of vets?-- Yes.

Was there anything else that you wanted to tell me about using
veterinary surgeons or a vet to come to your premises?-- Yes.
Mostly, my dogs don't get sick, it's very rarely they do. In
the last 20 years I think there was one that came down with -
50
an import dog that came down with a health - genetic health
problem and we monitored that and most of his progeny were
neutered as pets, before we sold them and the ones that were
kept were monitored by - some of them went to breeders and
they were told specifically what the problems and issues were
in that family itself, because they were rare dogs and I tried
to eliminate the problem and some of it has been eliminated,
we do come - end up with second generations of - well, they're

XN: BENCH
92
WIT: ROBERTSON G F F
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)27-28/PM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

still developing and growing and none of them have shown the
1
signs that mean that they are carriers. But the vets that I
did have in my - in one of my exhibits, a vet report from a
vet I used to see very regularly, he used to come and
vaccinate all my dogs, but-----

When did he come?-- For many years about - a bit over 10
years. He still comes occasionally, but his costs has gone up
a lot, his overheads have gone up a lot and as a consequence
I've been using a lot of like locum vets, you know like
10
the-----

That's all right, yes, I now recall you telling me about
that?-- Yes. And this 3 vets that [indistinct] have - who has
- who knows a lot more about my dogs, in other words, a
continuity of treatments, including this particular vet, he
has given me a very general comment and I've included as an
exhibit.

And where is it?-- In the affidavit of the - I think the - is
20
it the 4th or the one before - the neglect affidavit, which is
the one we were looking at that was lodged on the - not the
21st, the 28th, I think, of July.

Of July?-- From memory.

And which exhibit is it, Mrs Robertson?-- GR5. GR5, yes, the
second page of GR5. The first one is GR5 is - shows evidence
of additional replacement worming product, which was
purchased-----
30

Is that the tax invoice?-- Yes, that was the Ivermack liquid
for sheep and underneath it I wrote down the prescription that
was recommended by the vet, .6 of a mil 50 kilos, I think I
mentioned that earlier on and I bought 5 litres of it. The
dosage is 1 mil per adult big dog and half a mil for the small
ones. That's one of the worming products. I still have
Panacure 10 and Panacure 100, because they come in 5 litre.

All right?-- I buy them wholesale, so it's cheaper and that's
40
what I use primarily. We still use tablets and puppy emulsion
for the little ones, which we buy every now and then. Second
page of GR5 is a little note by Dr Arthur Woo, who for a long
time was the only vet I had, but because of the cost I've used
a few more now.

What day did Dr Woo sign that or make that?-- Oh some time
this year I visited him and asked him. I didn't realise he
didn't date it, but I didn't put it in earlier because my
vets, they ask me not to ask them for a report and they said,
50
look, they are in business and they didn't really want to get
involved with the RSPCA.

And these are for-----?-- And one of the vets I attended, him
and his son are vets and the son has just started.

Are those-----?-- They didn't want to get involved. A lot of
people didn't want to get involved.

XN: BENCH
93
WIT: ROBERTSON G F F
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)27-28/PM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
And those - but those records are - those records are for 1997
back, are they, '95?-- The 1997 back, these were examples of
photocopies of copies that I had that RSPCA did not remove
from my premises. It was quite by accident because I took
them out for filing and they were filed in storage, they
didn't come across those, so they didn't take them. The one
step were earlier, because the current ones were all removed,
they took the whole lot. They took a lot of documents and
didn't return them, no copies.
10

So the vets that you used, did they come to you or do you go
to them?-- They come to me mostly, some of them I do go to
them. There is 2 vets that I travel about 45 minutes to get
there and I don't usually use them unless - one of them comes
to me, his son does, he's a young new vet - to check up and do
the booster vaccinations, like the annual due ones. The young
puppies, they have to be taken to them, but if I have a lot,
say for example there's a whole lot of dogs like as in '97,
that's my worksheet. I have foolscap pages listed, when the
20
vaccinations are due. I don't keep cards for my own dogs,
because there's too many cards to keep, vaccination cards
individual. So I keep a list and I mark off the names and
tick them when they get vaccinated, you know each one.
Because when they're located, there's usually certain
locations and all the dogs know their names, that's how I
identify them.

So when was the last time that a vet came out to your place
and conducted a vaccination of a large number of puppies like
30
you have there?-- They - I usually split them up into 3 lots a
year, to cut the costs down. In other words, they usually
come when I've got - well, say a couple of litters. If I have
a litter of puppies I take it to the vet, it's cheaper because
it saves - they don't charge me for petrol and travelling, so
it saves a bit of money and convenience for them, so I tick
the trip with the dogs, the puppies. But if I've got all the
dogs, which usually is the case, for annual booster
vaccinations, in other words it is recommended that they do
and I will not take risks, because viruses are highly
40
contagious and they're airborne, so the vet comes to me and I
tell him how many needles I need. We do a C4 - what we call a
C4, the basic distemper, parvo hepatitis, there's no hepatitis
and distemper in Australia for many years, but it comes in one
vaccine, what they call a C3, a canine 3. The parvo is a
deadly one, it's a virus and it's rampant and we do also C4,
which is $2 extra and it comes in the same bottle of vaccine
and the vets usually when they come, I tell them how many
shots I need for how many dogs and he writes it down and I
tell him how many cards and those are for the puppies that we
50
sell.

Okay. When was the last time a vet came out and did that for
you?-- It would be in my diary, which I didn't get a copy back
from RSPCA, they took my [indistinct] my month - that's my
working diary for my private and business, everything is
recorded in it.


XN: BENCH
94
WIT: ROBERTSON G F F
60

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08082008 D.2 T(1)27-28/PM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

Okay?-- But from memory it would be - I knew everybody was up
1
to date except for some of the puppies that was on hand when
they were taken on the 9th of January. So I would say it
would be about the last quarter of the year last year, I would
have done a batch of dogs.

So about when?-- I would not remember which vet either,
because it would have been in my diary, the name of the vet
and a phone number for contact and a number vaccines ordered,
like you know, and how many cards.
10

Approximately what month?-- I can't remember. The diary will
- it's been a horrible time for me, your Honour, my memory has
been-----

Are you talking - are you talking the last quarter?-- Well,
the last quarter of '07 it would be.

All right?-- Because they came in-----

20
Some time between - would you agree that's some time between
September and December?-- It would have to be because-----

In the early part of that quarter or the later part of that
quarter?-- I would not remember, because there were so many
things that happened every day and everything is - that's why
I need diaries and also there was - I always write them there
and I check my diary every morning for anything special like
puppies due for worming.

30
Mmm?-- You know, all those would be noted down if I had
puppies, you see, because I work off that calendar and I ask
them for a copy of it back, the first thing I did they gave me
a copy of my computer notebook with the passwords - I mean
they took my computer, it wasn't any use.

Now, as a breeder, are you a registered breeder, is that
a-----?-- I was registered from 19 - although I wasn't a
breeder I've always been a member of canine control up to
2007.
40

Okay?-- And mainly it was because of the dispute between
members of the poodle club who are very good workers in canine
control and the canine control in Queensland - Canine Control
Council in Queensland is the dog registered body of pedigree
dogs in Queensland State.

Right?-- Altogether all the different states have got their
own bodies like Royal New South Wales Canine Council. I used
to be a member of that too, but I can't register my dogs
50
there. I only do that in order to get the magazines and to go
to the show on the timetables, okay.

Well, if you're breeding a dog-----?-- Yes.

-----how do you establish that your dog is a-----?-- The
quality and all that?


XN: BENCH
95
WIT: ROBERTSON G F F
60

---

08082008 D.2 T(1)27-28/PM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

Yes, quality or pure or-----?-- Well, they come with pedigree
1
papers, that's like a birth certificate for a human person,
except it goes back 3 generations. Most of my dogs I can
track them back 12 at least, right? The dogs that I've got
they are all pedigree, but my progeny from 2000, I was
planning to go out of breeding, in other words get my dog
numbers down, see the old dogs out in their time - live out
their time and I had been putting ads on the internet and one
of the ads I put in and I suspect that's what stirred up all
this - as I would call it - theft, but the - I had been -
10
because of the time that I need to spend on paperwork, in
other words every litter I must state the parents' registered
name, number-----

Registered where?-- Registered with Canine Control Council.

Registered with Canine Control?-- Forget the pedigree, a
registered pedigree.

Right, okay?-- I have to state the parents' name, the
20
registration numbers and when they were mated and how many
puppies survived. My mortality rate is virtually less than 1
per cent, in other words very few puppies die, basically
because I'm there to attend every delivery, it's very
important because you can't have a bitch - the mature bitches
are better mums, but nevertheless you've got to be there
because sometimes it's all hormonal and if they're deficient
in something or other or whatever, how knows, that doesn't
mean that if a bitch has got a litter of puppies very
naturally and easily, doesn't mean the next litter will be the
30
same because due to differences in hormone levels they could
be a bit scatty perhaps and sort of - and then we have to
watch and monitor those things, a bit of calcium, you know,
basic things that a vet tells us what to do. Before I treat
the dogs I always ring the vet and say - even all these years,
you know, just to confirm the situation and I do the delivery
and you just know - I just know from experience when I need a
vet and I can ring them, obviously I'm not going to ring up my
vet if it's going to be not a big problem, because you just
know what you do, the basic things.
40

So all of your dogs are registered with the-----?-- Canine
Control Council.

-----Canine Control Council?-- Yes. And because I was
planning to reduce my numbers and I had been advertising for
months on the net, that I will show you a copy of an ad that I
had.

Was it in the material that you filed?-- No, no, because it
50
was given to me by somebody, one of the ladies who was a
witness, she found it when she scanned through, I think it was
November 2007 when it happened and when I put the ad in and it
said, you know, registered breeder, show breeder was trying to
reduce stock at very reduced prices, you know, from 200
upwards, virtually the cost of de-sexing some of them for good
pets, but they must go de-sexed, you know, and with all the
de-sexing costs, you know, we always feel that if somebody

XN: BENCH
96
WIT: ROBERTSON G F F
60

---

08082008 D.2 T(1)27-28/PM(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

pays a certain - a nominal amount of money but they have to
1
think about spending that amount of money, they will really
have to decide whether they want that dog or not, not buy and
just discard it, because they're high maintenance dogs.
Normally our puppies sell for around 2 to $6000 a pup, but in
special cases like that, you know, a pup that has been
returned because somebody wasn't happy with it because the
bite hadn't been as correct as it should from a breeder, so we
just neuter it and sell it as a pet, there's nothing wrong
with it. You know just because its teeth is crooked or
10
something minor like that, he still has good health and he
will make a loving pet and usually we raise them and train
them because you can't sell a dog that is uncivilised, you
know, and people - and they always go clean, absolutely spot
on showroom condition. I bath them normally an hour before
they go, it takes me about an hour, to clip, bath and you can
just cuddle them and kiss them because they are so cuddly and
so sweet and you know, we clean everything, the ears, we flush
it out with Malaseb and water, just to make sure that it
doesn't get infected and make sure the eyes are fine. They
20
have been vet checked anyway and we use the stickers on the
vaccine bottles, I always keep all the empty vaccines and I
use the stickers for the cards, especially the dogs going
overseas. The local ones it doesn't matter, as long as it is
noted when - the vet will sign the card and note down when -
that is the vet's job - when they were vaccinated, the date of
vaccination, when is the next shot due, when is - for puppies
they are given 3 vaccinations, one between 6 to 8, 12 to 14,
16 to 18 weeks, because those are the periods which some -
different puppies might lose their mother's inherited immune
30
system, you know, immunity and that's when the needles
actually kick in, so it's very important we strongly stress on
that that they have to do that and if we run it on over 4
months they will be fully vaccinated and of course we worm
them again before they leave and we show the owner this is how
you do it, open your mouth and pop the tablet in that we use.
We don't use liquid. The day they leave, even though they're
not due for worming, because most worming products have got
very large margins, so we do that as a double precaution and
show the people how to do it so they know. We also give them
40
a hand out as to care and maintenance. I've got a website and
I always refer them to the website too to have a read and it's
been the same since it was installed in 2005 by my vet's son
and one of my vet's son. And what else would you wish to know
about vaccinations?





50




XN: BENCH
97
WIT: ROBERTSON G F F
60

---

08082008 D.2 T(1)29-30/RAH(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

BENCH: I think I've heard enough about vaccinations?-- Yes,
1
and worming.

Dr Kennedy; what do you say about his report?-- I think he
was very prejudiced. He didn't really care. He was quite
convinced because nobody told him about the flood at the end
and he was quite convinced that the flooding wasn't the case,
and in spite of the water outside and the dampness of
everything, he still insisted the dogs were soaked in urine
and faeces and everything that was solid resembled some form
10
of solidified material. I believe that he was not told before
the situation and his report is a bit prejudiced from what
he-----

All right. Is there anything that you want to tell me about
any of the material that's been filed, that's relied on by the
first and second respondent, for example, what do you say
about the - what's said about the condition of the animals
when they were seized?-- I think he had very limited knowledge
of poodles. Like most people, they do look quite-----
20

Are you talking about Dr Kennedy now?-- Yes, Dr Kennedy and I
can't remember who else has been. As far as Dr Kennedy goes I
think that, you know, dogs are dogs and animals are animals.
He couldn't seem to distinguish. I would assume that the
matting on a wool animal would be different from a matting,
just like a sheep, and would be different from a matting, from
a long-haired dog, like a border collie or something like
that. Short-haired dogs obviously don't matt and to him his
visions of flooding is, you know, the ones we see like the
30
Tsunami or something like that, survival of the floods.
He didn't seem to think that flooding could be just, you know,
up to 4 inches and damp and he didn't really care. You know,
he didn't - he mentioned he didn't notice those bed frames
which I had dismantled that morning and the bags in the
kennels, those plastic bags, were used from recycling, had the
hessian bags in them. They were so filthy with the mud and
the debris and everything else and wet and I didn't have time
to put the new beds down. I had the sacks up at the house
which I must bring down to the kennels to put on, cut the
40
holes, I usually do all that and just slip them onto the -
onto the frames. I hadn't had time to do that because the
RSPCA came at 9.42 and although they said in their many
reports they didn't come until 10 something, that wasn't true.
They didn't mention in their reports about the - and that, to
me, was vital, the timing and the fact that when he came
through, after questioning me about my name and address, as
prescribed by the Animal Care and Protection Act, they only
need to get my name, my address, my business address or my
home address, but instead he asked me all my private
50
questions, right in front of the full media and the only
reason I could determine that Sunday Mail were the people that
were standing there and she kept asking me questions and I
said: "Look, please." I was quite distraught that morning,
and also from lack of sleep I wasn't thinking too well. I
said to her, I said: "Please respect my privacy and don't
come in", and she didn't follow me into the house whereas when
I came back in, after putting up the embankment, the RSPCA

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said: "We'll bash the door down if you don't open it." I
1
just had my hand on the handle and I opened the door and said:
"You can come in now." And then he served me the summons. We
went into the office on the other side of that courtyard on
the left, just opposite is a glass door in my office and I
stood there at the desk and I said: "Look", and I explained
to him, I said: "Who" - outside we discussed why did he come
and he said there was - it was because of a complaint he
received 6 months ago from two people who ordered the dogs
from me, their owners complained about sticky eyes and
10
infected ears. I thought that was strange I'd totally cleaned
the - because you never send a dog back. Every morning I
check every dog at the kennel, be it mine or somebody else's
for the eyes and if they're sticky eyes you can see it. So, I
make a note of them. I come back to the house, I get the
saline solution which is - I used preserved saline for contact
lenses, to rinse out the dog's eyes and cotton wool, right,
which I take down there and there's usually a supply down
there as well. So, you attend to those things because all
dogs in particular have sticky eyes, you know, from the dust
20
or whatever, especially if it was dry and this, in the wet
condition, there wasn't much and they were more prone to
bacterial fungal infections so it was important that I kept an
eye on my dogs ears as well. A lot of them, I think, which
were - they get a thorough clean out when they are bathed and
clipped, you know, completely cleaned out, the [indistinct]
get emptied out, whether it's full or not, it does get emptied
out whenever they get a bath and the ears and eyes, everything
gets cleaned out. The nails need to be clean and clipped and
I think that's basically it.
30

All right. On the morning that the RSPCA turned up in
January-----?-- Yes, 9 of January.

-----9th of January, whether it was a quarter to 9 or a
quarter to 10 or quarter to 11-----?-- Yes.

-----had you had the opportunity to go through your cleaning
routine on that day?-- Not really, your Honour, because-----

40
Not really?-- No, because it was raining all night and I was
up all night waiting for these two litters which were born;
one about - just before midnight, I think, or late in the
night and the next one was born in the early hours of the
morning.

All right?-- And the mum had settled in, in the whelping box,
in the house, because of the rain and everything. I had them
in the whelping box-----

50
Had you started your cleaning regime before they arrived on
the 9th?-- I did only clean up that courtyard.

The courtyard?-- That's why I was quite shocked when he said 2
to 3 feet of faeces. The one from-----

The courtyard, is that the first part of the video where
you-----?-- Yes.

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1
Right?-- The one on the left.

Right?-- Because the puppies were there, you see?

All right. I'm just curious then-----?-- I brought them down.

-----when did you last do your complete cleaning routine,
regime?-- Complete cleaning routine would have been about the
weekend before, I think. It would be about that. I sort of
10
lost track of time because I had to pick up dogs from Benji
Kennels and I had to make arrangements so it has been very
tight for me and then the rain came and trying to do-----

Doesn't your cleaning regime include-----?-- Complete.

Well, your daily cleaning routine was-----?-- Yes.

-----to clean the bowls?-- Yes, everything.

20
-----to feed the dogs-----?-- Yes.

-----dry and wet food?-- The wet food is once a meal a day,
but the dry is checked twice a day.

All right?-- That's a must.

Dried, twice a day?-- Yes, and the water.

And to empty their beds?-- No, not the beds. The beds are
30
usually clean, but when they're dry and wet and messy, it's
got to be thrown out, you know? They're only sacks. They
cost about $2 each, that's all. We buy them for about $1.50.

So, what part of your cleaning regime had you got to by the
time the RSPCA turned up?-- Well, I couldn't do much. All I
did was feed them and scrub the bowls out and gave them water.
I had to shift all those puppies down from the kennels, the
ones up at the house in the holding pens, you know, all those
dogs that allegedly are living, according to RSPCA, they
40
wouldn't listen to me. They said they are living in confined,
jammed in. It was only a temporary holding pen. They hadn't
even lived there. So, those dogs were brought down from the
boarding block, or the quarantine block, down to the courtyard
so they can run around and I feed them big-----

Had you attended to their bedding?-- Oh, yes. Everything had
to be stripped off because it was too wet. It was soaked with
water and you know, everything. It was soaking and they had
to be removed because they would catch a chill otherwise.
50

All right. So you had the opportunity to do that, you had
stripped-----?-- Yes, I just stripped the beds. It's very
simple. You just - the hessian sacks, you know, coffee bean
sacks, these are new ones. You cut 2 holes and you pull it
through the leg on one side and it just drops, right?


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Mmm?-- Some of the toys will go inside, the small ones, and
1
sleep like - use it as a trampoline, you see? It's off
ground. It's about that high and I just couldn't because the
sacks were up at the house, the dogs already had pulled down
my shelves as you could see from the video, and there were
bags everywhere. Somebody had got out of the runs. The door
have got a latch - a latch lock, like a latch that drops down
like a swimming pool gates, and latch onto that and somebody -
I hadn't shut it properly when I came out the previous day,
like the night before, and when I got up there they had -
10
somebody had got out the kennel of dogs and pulled everything
down. They jumped up on the shelves, they're just having fun
and they pulled everything down, hence the - all that mess
there, the bags everywhere, all over the drains. So, when I
went up that morning, my priority was to get those pups down
because it was still showering, in between showers. I was
soaked when they came and my clothes were torn and I looked
like, you know-----

So-----?-- Yeah, I was soaked.
20

-----you had - you had some cleaning, you'd completed some
cleaning?-- Yeah, I stripped the beds. I didn't actually
clean and the other priority was I had to go out with a
shovel, which we keep, the pooper scooper, like you know, it's
a spade with a little tin and a stick so you can go around,
and I scraped some of the debris because the kennels are all
fenced in and there's about that - about I suppose 3 inches
from the ground, that's where the metal bar is and that's
where the water goes, under the fence. The gate, you know,
30
the doors and all that in the kennels. If it's any bigger the
dogs will escape. So, because of that I had to scrape the
debris out of the way, as you could see in the video, leaves
and twigs, whatever it was, shove it out of the way so the
water could drain out of the kennels or else it will pile up
there and will create more problems. So that was what I did
for the kennels up the front and the drains that were blocked,
I could not even scrape up the stuff which we normally do. I
just piled it - I put the shovel through, or the pooper
scooper scraper, and I just piled it on the side of the drain
40
and hopefully that the water can clear down the drain because
I didn't want it to build up because the gradient is very low.
It's not like it's a sharp drop, you see, because the dogs got
to live there so it's very low gradient, it's properly graded.
So, that was what I cleaned, the debris out you could see
there, the leaves and whatever, you know, that was in the way
I just didn't [indistinct] because everything was going to be
back that's why I had to throw the whole lot, except the bags,
into the septic. That was one of the rare occasions.
Normally we don't do that because it's not necessary. You can
50
isolate the leaves and twigs, which is not many, and the
faeces are collected and straight into the septic through the
toilet inlet. But for that few days I couldn't because
everything that I scooped up was like stew so they had to go
into plastic bags. I couldn't leave them all outside because
they will get more wet and if they spill it would be a massive
job. So, when the dogs were shifted progressively down to the
kennels, the big dogs, most of the standards, the males into

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that and the females - it had to be a controlled shift, you
1
see, because they can stray on the way, they run around and we
all get wet and there's no order so you've got to shift them
in batches, quite a few trips.

Okay?-- And so, that was what I did that morning. I'd done
that. I'd emptied up the bags because I didn't want them
laying on it because that means they're laying on soaked
material, they will catch a chill.

10
Okay?-- Right?

I follow?-- And I was going to go back later because in
between the showers I thought I'd put the ads on the net and
then go down because the puppies have been fed and wormed that
morning, the poop has been collected which is very important,
and you can monitor the poop, you see, so I feed them, put the
food down while they're eating, they finish, they'll go out
and poop and I watch if any puppies they are marked because I
shave the feet to mark them, right? You see I've got two
20
litters of pups. See Joan has got one litter and Jane has got
another litter. Joan's litter I write in my dairy shaved
right foot so everybody's right foot is shaved, right, with a
surgical blade so I can see and on the other litter, you know,
I do the same. If I've got one or two I write down, I know
them, you know? That's all I have to remember, a few dogs,
and that's how I control my dogs and I know who is what.

All right. From the video, we see one large dog in the
outside enclosure that's running around which appears to be
30
quite heavily matted, heavily knotted the coat. It appears to
me to be quite heavily knotted?-- Of the four in the middle
kennels?

Yes, the big - the cream coloured dog?-- Yes, the male - yes,
yes, that's Charlie.

All right?-- The other one is Simba.

All right. How many other dogs-----?-- That was that bad-----
40

-----that were - had heavily knotted or heavily matted coats
were there?-- There was two in the boarding block, you know
the quarantine block at the end?

Mmm?-- There was Jack the brown dog and there was Bacca,
another pale apricot dog. He was the one jumping around with
the toys because he's been used at stud and when he's been
used at stud I don't like to mix him with the other males.

50
BENCH: Yes, that's all right, but no, how many? How many
were-----?-- Yes, there were two of them there that was really
bad.

So, three altogether - three in total?-- Four.


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Four?-- Simba - Simba, Charlie, Jack, Bacca and then up at the
1
house there was Boyo, he's also an apricot, and his ears was
being treated and recovering.

No, just focus on that - the heavily knotted coat. So, how
many of those do you say there were?-- About half a dozen I
would say.

About half a dozen?-- From memory, yeah.

10
All right?-- Mmm.

And we're now talking about the dog with the infected
ear?-- Yes.

How many of those were there?-- There was Simba, the old dog
which I picked up the day before. He had some little small -
I checked him because he was shaking his head, and I looked at
his - and there were little small little maggots. I really
flushed out his ear the day before and I don't like to put
20
[indistinct] in it, which is cream, but-----

You flushed out a maggot from his ear?-- Yes. I've got to get
rid of the maggots first so I flushed him out twice that day,
the day before, and I was going to do him that morning later,
but because, like I said, I was held up and then they arrived,
and couldn't do anything. So, he - I did tell them about his
ears. I said his ears need attention, continuing-----

Who is them? Who did you tell?-- The RSPCA, Stageman, Laurie
30
Stageman was with me all the time. He was like - he kept
telling me: "Surrender all your dogs." I laugh. I said:
"You've got to be kidding, Laurie."

So, how many maggots did you flush out from his ear?-- There
wasn't that many. There were not real big fat ones. I
thought they were a bit strange. They were little skinny
ones.

How many?-- Oh, there was not that many. I would say - it
40
wasn't like it was full, you know? There was a mere - about
half a dozen or maybe less, about four. I just saw a couple
of them so I put the Malasap in and flush it. He shook his
head and there was a few, one or two, I think the second round
when I flushed it, there was about one or something like that.
So, I removed it with tweezers and then I let him shake his
head because, you know, I wanted - because of the ear canal I
thought I'd leave it till the next day and flush it out again.
I flushed it out that afternoon too, the previous day. Twice
I flushed out and the next morning I couldn't do it, so I told
50
them I'd - the RSPCA, I wrote a list that his ears had to be
done and Milly was on antibiotics as well. That was
prescribed by the vet and she was on the second course and I
did have some antibiotics left over.

So, there was 3 or 6?-- It was liquid and - sorry?


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3 or 6 maggots flushed out - flushed out of that dog's
1
ear?-- Yeah, the day before.

Okay?-- I would expect - sorry-----

What is that an indication to you? What does that reveal if a
dog has maggots-----?-- Well, he had an infection in the ear
and some fly could - you see he could have been from laying
down, because of the weather. We don't get maggots and flies
generally. Under normal, our kennels don't have any flies or
10
maggots. Admittedly, there is livestock on the property at
the back adjoining me. They have a piggery and they've got
chickens and the flies, I suppose, could have - but because of
the hot humid weather I was very conscious of the ears because
it's - it's typical weather for bacterial, fungal infections
and eyes too because of the dust, you know, previously to the
rain. So, that was something we kept an eye on were the dog's
eyes and the ears because of this damp, moist weather.

Were there any other dogs that had infected ears?-- There
20
wasn't any that had infected ears to the extent where like
these ones had, I would assume.

These ones?-- Well, the ones that had the ears that was being
treated, like Milly and Boyo. That was Milly was pretty - she
was on her second course - she was on - she had finished one
course of antibiotics.

So, she had ear problems as well?-- Yeah, but she didn't have
maggots. She just had a fungal infected - bacteria infected
30
ears and I was treating it with the ointment that was
prescribed by the vet.

All right?-- And the different treatments, you know, it just
depends on what sort of infection and the condition of it, you
see?

All right?-- So, the - the - I usually ring the vet and
confirm, unless you know I have the time to take the dogs down
there, or he could come.
40

Okay. All right. So, we've got-----?-- I couldn't get him to
come to attend to one dog, unless it's an emergency.

Six dogs that are - their coats heavily matted, I don't know
if that's the right word?-- Well, what I would say, pretty
grim, yes.

Yes. All right. Two dogs with ear infections?-- That-----

50
One is on-----?-- Recovering?

One is on a second course of antibiotics, the
other-----?-- No, she wasn't on the second course, but because
she was being taken I gave her the second course for her. I
told Laurie and I said: "I've treated the" - the cost of
antibiotics is generally ten days - five days, right, and I
had some antibiotics which the vet left for me for one of the

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other dogs. It's only penicillin or, yeah, penicillin, and
1
the vet has showed me through the years how to inject - you've
got to inject into the muscle, okay? And I did that because I
wanted her to be all right. You know, she had done one course
but the ear didn't look like it was - it was healing quite
well, so I gave her another course of antibiotic because she -
she was been on tablets, Cavelox, which is like Otmantine, the
human equivalent is penicillin plus cavelic acid, so that it
has got a time delay - release into the system.

10
In what form did you give that?-- The - she already had been
on the course of tablets.

Right, so-----?-- A 5 day course and this one-----

A five day course of tablets?-- Mmm.




20


30
40
50

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Then you gave her an injection?-- Yes, that will take her on
1
for another five days.

Right?-- And, hopefully, she would have recovered and I made a
note of it and I wrote all those things down for Lawrie
Stageman.

Right?-- Because they were important to me because they were
old dogs.

10
Did you give the injection before the dog was removed from the
kennels?-- Yes, and I told them that I'm doing it now when
they were - when they were seizing the dogs they said they
seize, I immediately freaked out because some of the dogs, I
was concerned about them. They're older dogs.

Right. Okay. So you were concerned about those dogs. Were
there any other dogs that you were concerned about?-- There
was Ella, remember, the - she's the one with the burnt
oesophagus She was just coming good.
20

Yes, yes?-- And that was the only one. She got to have a
special diet. She can't eat bones. She loves it. She can't
dry biscuit although she's learnt to eat dry biscuits. She
will chew everything up fine because if she - see, dogs
normally eat a mouthful of biscuits and they swallow some of
it and chew some of it. Okay. When she did that she vomited
it out because the oesophagus isn't normal. See, the opening
could be about, say, that big, right - well, that big. Well,
exaggerating, say, it's normally that big but because it had
30
lesions it closed, right. So it got to the stage where she
couldn't even swallow liquid through. She would - she vomits
it out. So when the - when I took her to the specialist
centre what the physician used to do was he put down a
catheter and a balloon and under anaesthetic and he'd blast
the lesions that the oesophagus - widen it and but every now
and then it grows back again and it chokes her. She can't eat
or drink even so every four days I'd have to take her back,
under general anaesthetic, fast her for half a day and she was
losing condition because-----
40

She couldn't eat?-- It's not only she couldn't eat, she had to
be fasted for the antibiotic.

Mmm-hmm?-- But she was a happy dog and she was eating well,
doing well, and I would feed her nourishing like mince steak,
vitamise - cook mince, vitamise roast chicken with vitamins in
it and - multi vitamins-----

All right?-- -----liquid and calcium because for her
50
nourishment because - for her nourishment and I was really
concerned about her.

Okay?-- So I tried - I wrote all these things for Lawrie
Stageman and Benji Kennel's 12 dogs which had to be shipped.

Right?-- And the vaccinations, I've already teed up with
Callum Robertson, no relation, he was an [indistinct] vet

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that's close to the airport and I used him because he's very,
1
very particular and very strict.

Of the-----?-- Mmm-hmm.

Of the 104 dogs which were seized-----?-- Yes.

-----you had concerns about nine - sorry, you had concerns
about three and-----?-- Millie was okay because she had the
second course.
10

Right?-- Boyo was-----

I thought you were concerned about-----?-- -----on his first
course still.

Right?-- Right.

Mmm-hmm?-- He was halfway through his first course of
antibiotics and the major one I worried about was Simba.
20

So that's three?-- Because she was due for a second flushing
and ointment, right.

So that's three dogs you were concerned about?-- I was really
concerned and Ella, the black standard, that had the expensive
surgery because it's life threatening for her if she can't eat
or choke on the food.

Okay. So out of that-----?-- And she was just putting on
30
weight.

So you were concerned about four-----?-- Eighteen and a-half
kilos - 19 and a-half.

So you were concerned about four of the dogs?-- Yes.

Right. Of the remaining 100 which was seized on the
9th-----?-- Mmm-hmm.

40
-----what was the condition and did you have any concerns
about their condition?-- Most of them were all right. The
puppies were also a major concern. You worry about everybody.
They're like your children. It's just like if you've got six
kids-----

All right. Did they have any health issues?-- There were no
health issues. Nobody had open wounds because I checked.

Did any of the other - of the 100 which were remaining, apart
50
from the six that you've spoken about, have any - I keep
forgetting the phrase, heavily knotted coats?-- It depends on
how you define heavily knotted coats.

Okay. Knotted coats?-- They all have knotted coats at some
point in time because they will mat with rain, dust and
whatnot and especially when they're running around, you know,
even show dogs. You can spend four hours brushing them. The

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moment you let them off they run around the yard and with the
1
movement you find they'll be a few mats but not as bad as when
their dirty. You see, a clean coat-----

All right. But was their coat - were any of their coats such
that you were concerned by the matting or the
knotting?-- Naturally I'm concerned about all of them. Every
one of them including the one with short coats because they're
being removed from an environment where it's virtually disease
free.
10

Yes, all right?-- Yes, I'm very strict about that. You have
to because, if not, if one dog gets sick the whole kennel-----

Okay?-- Yes, everything is infectious.

Okay. You say RSPCA turned up at 9.45?-- Yes.

As at say 8 o'clock on that morning-----?-- Yes.

20
-----was any there any - any other dog that you had any
concerns about either their health-----?-- No.

-----their coat?-- Not great concern.

Or their condition?-- Just - I am concerned about the
ears-----

Now listen - listen, either those three things; their
health-----?-- Mmm-hmm.
30

-----their coat or their condition?-- Their coat, I'm
concerned with everyone because they do need attention.

Mmm-hmm?-- Even that short coated ones because, look, it's
been dry, dusty-----

I've heard all that. I can understand that?-- Yes.

What about their condition?-- The condition were okay.
40

Okay?-- Good and okay, excellent and okay.

Excellent and okay?-- Yes, because everybody was eating.

All right?-- Nobody was sick or anything like that. Their
toilet were all firm. It wasn't like - the signs of looking
at a sick dog is very simple. It does look a bit
disinterested, you know, the signs and other than that for
puppies and whatnot, if they're bit lethargic, depending on
50
the time of day, you just know.

Okay?-- You look at them, you just know. They don't have to
sort of sick literally.

But prior to the arrival of the RSPCA-----?-- They shake their
heads or something, you know.


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Prior to the arrival of the RSPCA-----?-- Mmm-hmm.
1

-----on the 9th you had no concerns about the dogs?-- No.

All right?-- No major concerns.

No major concerns?-- Yes.

All right?-- Because no - everyone has passed the checks the
day before, the night before, two days before and that morning
10
as well. The only dogs I didn't check that morning physically
hands-on were the four in the halfway kennels because I did -
I went to the boarding - I took the puppies down to the house.
I was busy cleaning up and worming everybody. Every - the
ones in the holding pens, the males and the females in the
grass area, the males in the enclosed concreted area, they
were all wormed the day before when I brought them down and
the ones in the kennels were due to be wormed that day after,
you know, I finished what I can handle down there.

20
Mmm-hmm?-- You know, the important things. You see the mums
have been fed because I didn't sleep that night so when they
finished [indistinct] I give them a good feed, you know, of
food and water so they were fed. The puppies at the house,
they were not vaccinated. They were six weeks old and the
four standard puppies in the laundry which could be seen and
that - he make comments, I think, Dr Kennedy make comment that
the paper looked like it hasn't been clean for ages. That's
rubbish. It was done the day before but, you know, puppies
they will chew it up and play and scratch around and that was
30
where the toilet - see, the puppies. They were still not
weaned, those puppies, because the mother weans them.

I think he also made a similar comment, I might not be correct
in this, but I have a recollection that he made a similar
comment about a single dog in a cage, the one where you opened
the-----?-- Yes, that was in the office itself-----

-----about the paper?-- -----the holding pen, yeah, it was
dusty and everything. I had to throw paper in because I
40
didn't want her being let loose with the males getting to her.
There was a six or seven month old brown male that had been -
a squabble - I think the older dogs picked on him and his neck
was all hurt. This was about three weeks before that and it
had grown back. It has been - he has been on a course of
antibiotics as prescribed by the vet and I told him what
happened. He said I'll just give him a course of antibiotics,
he said, you know, they'll - if you got - if you haven't come
and pick up some. So I did and his skin had healed because I
wash it with saline and the skin had grown back and it was
50
just growing back hair and some smart woman from RSPCA said,
"Oh, that bitch" meaning me, "has left that dog - threw hot
water on the dog's neck" and I heard that through the door and
I say, "I beg your pardon", I said, "that wasn't hot water".
I said, "His skin has just grown back and his hair is growing
back". So he was a young male and you can't trust anything
from about eight months, can be a father, so because Nardia
who was in season, I know, and the girls were picking on her,

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08082008 D.2 T(1)31/IRK(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

it's jealousy thing. She should be in a kennel at the
1
boarding block on her own but because of all these dramas and
people coming the only safe place was - she was out there with
the other pups and I was watching but when I saw people
coming, I mean, there's going to be a lot of drama and people
coming through, you know, you just know, commonsense. So I
grabbed her and stuff her in there and all I did was throw the
paper on to cover the dust because those pens hadn't been used
for months and so the dogs that got in there everybody was
jumping around, you know, all the activity, they hear and so
10
that's why Nardia was in the office, you see, and the office
was a mess because, you know, I'd just - I - my kennels are
kept cleaner than the house. You know, you could eat off the
floor when it's clean and that - they have seen that and other
people have been there.

I'm not so much concerned about your domestic, you know,
tidiness-----?-- Yes.

I'm not-----?-- And that was the only reason. You see, all
20
that stuff that looked grey and brown and yellow they were
dust from - like I said, I don't leave my windows - now I keep
all my windows shut not because I don't like my fresh air but
because I'm scared of people coming in. My screens are all
broken. It's just terrible.



30
40
50

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08082008 D.2 T(1)32/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

Is there anything else you'd like to tell about
1
anything?-- About the- I was going to go through and cover the
points on the areas that - on neglect. My famous poodles,
well, I'm the only standard poodle in Australia.

You're the only-----?-- Standard poodle breeder in Australia
and poodle breeder. They've got champions that I've exported
and increased the progeny all over the world. I have had a
dog shown for four years continuously owned by Vulcan Kennels.
That's in Exhibit 1.
10

BENCH: To which affidavit?-- I think the one - the big thick
one.

The 21st or the 27th?-- I think this is the 28th.

28th I'm sorry?-- Silver Fox. He - if he's alive now he died
- he was put down, put to sleep at 13. He had cancer of the
prostate at 13. He was own - for four years he was shown at
Crufts, the most prestigious dog show in the canine world - in
20
the world - in London, for four years and he has sired only
three litters and his progeny has been shipped all over
Europe, the States and to the Asian countries as well by his
owner, Ms Ann Cambray Coppage of Vulcan Kennels. She is an
International all breeds dog judge and a poodle specialist and
he is - that's a photo of him in black and white and he named
him after me, Gerry, and he's silver standard. They're very
rare, the hardest to breed and I started with that colour. I
have send eight including 12 year old silver standard when he
was tested fertile because they saved his semen to Canada to
30
one of the old kennels in Toronto owned by Mary Jane T Weir.
She's given me a reference as - I think it's in the previous
affidavit dated the - dated the previous - the 21st of July
and the second GR2 of the - the second affidavit and the first
- Mary Jane T Weir's reference. So I don't breed silver
standards any more. She took all my silver standards and she
wanted them shipped in three different planes because she was
afraid it would crash and I told her the chances are million
to one, I guess, and she said, "No, no, no, these are the last
of these, good stuff, Geraldine." It cost about $3,000 per
40
shipment for a dog to fly. I gave her some and sold her some
and one of - the only dual champion I think at this point in
time. I think she get knocked out. In Australia obedience
and also endurance title - at 12 years of age, he did the
endurance title and she - there's quite a famous standard
poodle in Victoria called Neither Circus Rose, that's GR2,
14th birthday at the beginning of November 2008, that's Rosie
at 14 - that's a picture of Rosie at 14 and she went to the
States and she had two litters in the States. She's also to a
triple PHD dog and the first standard poodle in America -
50
North America, that is human remains, a cadaver - human
remains detection dog. There's an article about him. He's is
her - Circus Rose's son, mated to a Canadian and American -
UKH. He's the only standard poodle, I think, equivalent to
three PHD apparently, I'm told. I don't know much about
obedience and that was the father. He's just a normal poodle,
normal standard poodle. It's just that they are so
intelligent and so smart and there was a bit of information

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08082008 D.2 T(1)32/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

here for anyone interested. It's quite interesting to read,
1
how they have to pass. Within an hour they have to detect two
human remains, a bit of nail up in a tree and a bit of
something, bone, buried a certain amount of centimetres
underground - or inches. So it's good to know, like, for
myself, it's very fine to know that not only do I - have I
contributed to the standard poodle population so that, you
know, there will be dogs perpetually, hopefully bred by
responsible breeders that will go on living, to a breed - the
only breed I have ever bred and owned and know. I have never
10
owned any other breed of dog and what else is there. My
puppies. I don't breed a lot but I sell them for top dollar.
It's the - if you want a pet I'm very competitive and it goes
desexed. I absorb the desexing costs. If they want - unless
I know them, a reliable breeder, responsible breeder. I
wouldn't even mind giving the dog away but you know to pay for
the upkeep we do sell our dogs for a quite exorbitant amount.
It's very expensive. Like I said, our standards in the rare
colours, the red is the latest. I don't own any red standard
poodle although there were quite a few, I think, about - over
20
10 of them. I can't remember the number off hand that belong
to another breeder. Half of it is my breeding from my
apricots and the other half is from an American import dog.
They own the pedigree. We were supposed to do a swap but my
dogs were taken before we swap for some toys - pedigreed toys
and those dogs belong to them so - they are worth $38,000 a
piece, an adult, and I think they were the six that were
shipped out of RSPCA kennels the first day they went in on the
9th apparently. The dogs were shipped out immediately after
vet inspection. 40 dogs were shipped out to three locations
30
north of Brisbane river. I was told that by a couple of
people whom I believe - I promised that I wouldn't release who
they are and I just have to find out one way or the other
whether that is true.

One final question from me, your affidavit of the 21st of
July?-- Yes.

GR2, I think, it's 01, 02 and 03 and I suppose 04 as well,
some photographs?-- GR2, yes.
40

Have you got it? Do you want me to show you the Court
copy?-- I don't-----

Ms Mellifont, these might be the ones that you didn't have a
copy of. They're the-----

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, they are, your Honour.

BENCH: Yes?-- Yes, thank you. Yes.
50

Not the first page the second two over?-- Yes.

And the next three or four pages?-- Yes, that's the courtyard
holding pens.



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08082008 D.2 T(1)32/AET(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

Just - yes, I can see what it - when were those photos
1
taken?-- After the dogs were taken, actually, when I was doing
the appeal. It took me about an hour and a bit to clean up.
All I had to do was just clean up all the dirt, shovel it up
and thrown them back in the yard and the hose it out. It
takes me about, at the most, if there's dogs in residence,
like, it did before, possibly two hours at the most because
everything is handy.

So when did you clean up the dog's yard?-- Oh, shortly after
10
the rain.

Shortly after the rain?-- Yes.

How long-----?-- When the dogs - after January when the dogs
were taken. That was before - it's full of grass and weeds
now which we never had before.

Can you try and pin down when you cleaned it out?-- I think
the follow - I couldn't do anything for about 2 weeks, I was
20
in a state of shock. I didn't eat, I didn't sleep. I kept
vomiting. I didn't even think of message bank, the phone kept
ringing and ringing. I've a bell on the wall so that I'm
alerted to phone calls and I couldn't get rid of - I couldn't
disconnect it.

Certainly. See-----?-- So this was done about - I think about
the second or third week, your Honour.

Okay. And when do you think the photos were taken, about the
30
same time or later?-- These photos were taken the day - no the
date before the rain, on the 22nd, that morning. We took
these photos at the boarding block. The kennels were cleaned
up earlier because I had repairs and maintenance done to them.
As to the latches on the doors they were all redone because of
the moisture. The dry whether and the moisture I think there
was a bit of corrosion, rust. So I got the carpenter and the
builder in to fix up all the rungs on the inside door - see
that was what caused the dogs to get out, escape and pull the
shelves down and all the rubbish. So these are the kennels,
40
the boarding block, the quarantine block. And the man came,
he was late. I think eventually he did finish them the week
before the 22nd or thereabouts, a few days. So, Mrs Watt came
down to see me because I told her and I said to her that day,
I said, "Look, I'm going to take some photos because the
appeal was due." The lawyers were very slow because they were
busy, they had other things to do, to lodge my appeal to DPI.
And Margaret - I said, "We need some photos of what the
kennels look like." So we just went down there and took the
photos, that was all we did. The kennels were clean, I think
50
about the second week. I'd cleaned those kennels.

And those photos are the same area that we see in the video,
is that right?-- Yes.

Right. Okay?-- And that's how they normally look. The other
photos with dogs in them are here further on, these are - this
is the kennel block. That's how they normally look during

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08082008 D.2 T(1)33/CAS(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

normal time. This is where the septic is. Where all the bags
1
and what not was that was strong because strewn around because
the shelves - there are shelves on - this other side of the
wall, see the toilet next to that back door - there's a door
there, doorway, where the pedestal is and opposite that is a
wall where there were shelves where the disinfectant and the
dogs bowls are kept and anything I want off the ground like
plastic bags or - when the rain came I put the plastic bags
down there to collect all that stewey stuff to be emptied into
the septic because there's nowhere I could put it. I can't
10
put it on the acreage because it's not hygienic.

Okay. So those - that's how the kennels were when they - when
the RSPCA came back on the second occasion, is it?-- Yes.

All right?-- And these were the drains where the filters are.
There are filters underneath that and then there's a rubber
lip over it like a broad mesh and these are actually mesh
filters.

20
All right?-- And that's what slowed down the water draining
into it and where Dr Kennedy said that there were maggots, you
couldn't see the maggots because I think at some part of the
footage there was very little water because it had drains
completely dry and some of it, the new rain water was getting
in there. On other parts of the footage the water was quite
heavy in that centre drain and I think he said there were
maggots. You couldn't see maggots because it was quite fast
flowing. It's good drainage. It's not as sufficient as your
normal sewerage, town sewerage. Now these photos were taken I
30
think sometime last year before the rains came in the drought.
The kennels - because I - or maybe the puppies - when - how
old were these puppies? I think about middle of the year -
middle of the year, I did have some puppies last year, or
something like that, I can't remember. It possibly was and
that's how the kennels look like at the back, you know, the
quarantine block. These are the larger run at the front where
in the video we saw a lot of green that looks like dirt, you
know the - the algae sort of thing, from the overcast skies
and then the sun came and everything went green because of the
40
dirt and the grass seeds I think. And tat was the first
kennel where the 2 Labradors were Labrador pups. I left them
there because I had 10 to do up at the house that needed teddy
bear looking - in other words cleaning in his gland and all
that. That takes a bit longer and the scissoring, tidy up of
the hair around the eyes for the teddy bear look. That's what
Benji Kennels wants their dogs and the whole body they want
the coat long. And the other was the Labradors were left down
there because all they really need was a good bath and rinse,
you know, before they go to AQIS. But as these ones, the
50
scissoring work and nails as well, the Labrador need the nails
done as well but not the things that - a turbine need to be
used, they can be towelled dry. So that was the only reasons
why all the shaggy dogs were up at - the pups were up at the
house. And also because they were due for worming. And this
is where all the debris from here flowed out at the end, which
Dr Kennedy said they were faeces but they were the dirt that
came in and also from the embankment. This thing was flowing

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08082008 D.2 T(1)33/CAS(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

out and there - you would notice in the photo itself and on
1
the video that there is a guard that flaps and that's for the
release of anything, if I want to let it out to stop the
debris coming in. But this fine silt builds up, you see with
the continuous and the flooding and then it goes away. It
drains just as quickly because everything is graded. It was
designed that - it was built a kennel and this was taken
before the rain, obviously, quite long before, it was still
drought time. And there's the Gigi, we sold her for $18,000.
She was 10 months old. I think that could have been about a
10
year or so ago because that's when Gigi left. And these are
some of the red standards. The colour is not quite right,
these are browns. That's a brown and apricot and pale
apricot. Now this is the shelf that the dogs knocked down.
See, these ones - I piled the timber up on that to support it
because - and I left this clear. That was on that wall where
all the bags were, the drain, close to the back door. It was
clean. That was after it's been cleaned. About the second
week - I cleaned - I cleaned that first and then I cleaned the
house last because - well, it seemed like easier to do for me
20
to - because I thought the dogs were coming home so I cleaned
up that area first because I thought if they were coming home
they got to go to quarantine first before they're let loose.
At least for 3 weeks, you know, for worming and to make sure
that there are no diseases and what not, monitoring and the
vet checks. Now this is during the dry season, see how brown
the - all the grass had died, the drought was so bad. That
was the dogs and the red dogs are about - between - a cross
between these 2 colours. They are very, very rare. They sell
for $38,000 for young juvenile. The apricot which is not
30
nearly as dark, that one went 10 months old for 18. It went
to a show home. So this is a 4 month old pup. This is our
apricots. The dogs they took were - yeah, that's a red toy.
These are apricot standards and that is a red dog that was
sent to me and groomed like that in show continental trim and
he was actually in the kennel. I'm not - it didn't matter to
me whether the dogs were important or not they're all treated
the same. So he was in the kennel in the field because see
part of him and he seemed to have disappeared too. Nobody saw
him.
40

All right?-- I think that was basically it.

Well, on the Monday we'll recommence.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour.

BENCH: And cross-examination will commence.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour.
50

BENCH: Mrs Robertson, there's nothing else that-----?-- I
still had a few things I did want to talk on I think.

Well we might do that on Monday morning then. It's just a bit
after 5 so-----?-- Thank you.


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08082008 D.2 T(1)33/CAS(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)

-----we'll do that on Monday morning. But then there'll be
1
some cross-examination. As I said to you earlier today if you
need any break at all during the course of cross-examination
please say so?-- Thank you.

And we'll allow you to have a break, all right?-- Thank you.

I don't know how long it will take see, but please don't
hesitate to ask for a break if you need one?-- Thank you, your
Honour.
10
All right. Is there anything else that you wanted to raise?

MS MELLIFONT: Yes, your Honour.

BENCH: I anticipate there is, you're on your feet.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes. Your Honour, I might just mention that
Mrs Robertson hasn't given any evidence in respect of the
second forfeiture there, the single dog.

20
BENCH: Oh, of course, yes, yes.

MS MELLIFONT: May I also be so bold as to suggest-----

BENCH: I will attempt to lead some evidence from Mrs
Robertson on Monday about the second occasion the RSPCA came
out in February?

MS MELLIFONT: Yes.

30
BENCH: I'll ask you to tell me about that on Monday.

MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.

BENCH: All right. And then allow you to tell me the things
that you want to tell me before the cross-examination
commences.

MS MELLIFONT: And I wondered if I could inquire about the
possibility of continuing to Wednesday, if we don't finish on
40
Tuesday because it - although I won't be cross-examining at -
hopefully for more than two or three hours. There are still
all those prosecution witnesses to continue.

BENCH: Yes, yes.

MS MELLIFONT: So I was just wondering if the Courts calendar
may be able to accommodate continuing on to Wednesday or
Thursday if possible.

50
BENCH: I won't be here on Wednesday. You can come on
Wednesday if you wish but you will be alone.

MS MELLIFONT: Thank you.

BENCH: Mrs Robertson won't be here either.

MS MELLIFONT: Can I show without punctuality?

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08082008 D.2 T34/SLF(BNE) M/T BMC26 (Strofield, Magistrate)


1
BENCH: Well, Exhibition Wednesday.

MS MELLIFONT: Oh, of course. Well we'll all be at the show.

BENCH: Of course. My calendar has been - for next week I
already know where I am and Monday and Tuesday certainly have
been set aside.

MS MELLIFONT: Yes.
10

BENCH: And - excuse me for a moment. And I'm in the arrest
Court on Friday. While we're talking Courts, I understand
this Court is required for something else on Monday so we're
back to Court 34 on Monday. I can't guarantee you that we
will be in Court 34 on Tuesday. Now I don't think there will
be an issue but we will check over the break - over the
weekend, I should say, about sitting on Thursday if that's
needed.

20
MS MELLIFONT: Thank you, your Honour.

BENCH: Nothing else? Anything else?

MS MELLIFONT: No, nothing, sorry.

BENCH: All right. We will adjourn till Monday. Please don't
wait for me, I've got many things to pack up.

MS MELLIFONT: Thank you, your Honour.
30



THE COURT ADJOURNED


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